Game Thread: Werewolf- this time it's real!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

You just reminded me of one thing that was bothering me about you but I always forgot to mention. The quote above is a classic example, but there have been a few other similar ones as well. That sort of seemingly-careless, half-serious little accusations seasoned with a rolleyes smiley. I can't see the purpose that would serve for an ordo, but I do see the benefit of retorts like that for a wolf. This sort of things are easy to toss around and can be interpreted as a joke or a serious suspicion both. Having given lots of statements like that, you can then refer to them either as "I suspected him already here!" or "hey, but that was just a joke, why didn't you guys get it", whichever way the situation develops.

A classic example? Aren't you now stretching things to your favour? And you really can't see the purpose for an innocent to do that?

You should know better. And this makes me eat some of my words of not suspecting you so much anymore I said in my last post before seeing this.

Of course ordos gain from making things like that. You fish reactions, you look and see how people react to those. I thought Shasta's answer to that was a bit dubious and I already thought I might have a scent of a trace there but with you then...

Well if you are a baddie and wish to play as safe as possible then you probably won't see it. But we ordos need to get people into talking and reacting - and if they do not do it themselves and free-willing we need to force them to do it. Making that kind of statements is one way of doing it.

How have you tried to fish the wolves out from the lot yourself?

[Isabellkya]

Sally:
I've not felt good about her since the first Day, when she suspected nienna only after Nog did. Which it really was a suspicion. It was like a definitive decision, "Okay, I see what you say, she is definitely evil!" Then followed it up with a vote for her. Nothing she has said since change the furry or fangy feelings. Quite the opposite, they make her look more baddie.

Gwath
As with Sally, I've not gelt good about him since his Nienna jumping and vote after nog's posted suspicions. His part/interaction with the Kuru/Kent deal yesterDay did nothing. Since it seemed he would've voted for Kuru more for him(Gwath) agreeing with Kent - rather than his saying he would've done it to save Nog. Though, I don't know if I would be ready to commit it to vote. because I feel he is connected to Sally in some way - yet I'm not certain they are both mates. AS it would be either super sloppy on both their parts if it were so. Or incredibly daring for some purpose, I can't yet imagine.

Nog
He seems his usual self. Though toDay he seems to be much more aggressive and jugular than in previous days As with yesterDay, I'd not vote for him toDay.

Nilp
He is helpful, or appears to be so. I don't find him overtly suspicious which would warrant a vote. He is playing a semi-private game. In that he seems to be conduction reactionary(?) experiments on some. I did not expect him to vote for Kuru yesterDay, mainly if I remember correctly - he said he didn't find him very suspicious. My only conclusion is that he was trying to save a Nogmate? I would like to know one thing, though I will wait until the game is over as to the validity and truth of it.

Fea
I am very curious as to her reasons of her vote for Nog yesterDay. I can only think that she did it because she is an Ordo and is bored, or she is the Cobbler and wanted to get people to use/waste their bonus votes - which some of us did.

Kent
I am for the most part comfortable with him, and have no reason to vote for him. My only qualm with him is the distraction his newbie discussion brought yesterDay. If you clear it out, it leavs almost something to be desired.

Brin, Lari & Green
All in the same boat for me. I can understand holding back the bonus votes for future use. Yet it almost seems like it is being used as an excuse, a shield to not delve into the game futher and commit to anything.

Shasta
He seems jumpy and I'm not liking his interactions with Brin. They have both defended each other when there really wasn't a need for it. Now, would mates do such a thing? I could see it, because the nature of the defending was not entirely related to suspicions voiced against them.

Form
I don't have a reason to vote or suspect him.

[Kent2010]

Formendacil

Fair enough... I am mollified, I guess, insofar as I don't know you, so I can't distinguish between newbie covering (especially since, were that so, you could assisted by PMing with the other Wolves) and honesty--but at for know, I'm mollified. Though, I suppose, if you are a wolf, and you die, we should be looking for people who posted on this thread between those two posts to find someone who potentially might have been a PM partner.

Hmm... that might actually be an interesting gambit: lynching Kent to see if he's a wolf. It's tenuous grounds, to be sure, but that's sort of the prevailing atmosphere.
-post 239

What stands out about this is that I almost am painted into a no win situation. Were you jumping the gun Formendacil? Lynch me, and if I turn up a wolf check for any of my PM partners? You say you're mollified but conclude with the curious statement of test lynching me to see if I'm a wolf?

Hey, Nilp!

I haven't got any good voting plans? Want me to throw away my vote on you, since you can't autovote?
-post 254

Would you like to be test-lynched to figure out what we do with Nilp?

Speaking of Nilp, I feel like I should keep more of an eye on him this game. He has a tendency to slip under my radar because of his long-standing auto-vote, self-destruct, and-guess-what?-he's-an-ordo role, and long-standing prejudices are hard to shake... and Nilp has a long standing "good guy" prejudice in my mind. Not saying he's guilty (no evidence in the slightest to do so yet), but reminding myself to do so.
-post 305

Keeping the oppurtunity open to turn on a partner if needed?

To put it in other words, perhaps the wolves decided that, if Aganzir was converted to their side, and we woke up today with no one missing from our midst, she'd be the last one we'd look for as a converted new wolf, simply because she had been so conspicuous yesterday, and thus the sort of noisy person that wolves leave around to keep the heat off themselves.

I'm hardly wedded to this, but it's the best theory that offers something rather than just random confusion as the answer--at least to my mind.
-post 315

With the threat of Luthien still around are the wolves really looking to cause random confusion for their kills?

I am deeply amused that this little interjection of mine is getting so much attention. If it reads like "by the way, I don't see why everyone was suspicious of Nienna yesterday," that's because that is very much what I was saying... but in a slightly different tense. More along the lines of "by the way, I didn't see THEN why everyone was suspicious of Nienna." Granted, I may not be helping myself with this clarification... but you ARE more or less interpreting me right--not going to complain about that.
-post 330

This is Form's response to his statement regarding Nienna, and taking the moral highground as Nogrod mentioned...I wonder if I should analyze why you all capped 'ARE' pretty much saying my interpretation of it was correct?

And that's all I've looked at today... I sort of defended Kuru as not being a cobbler, but that doesn't mean he's not a wolf.
-post 333

This looks like a sneaky attempt to offer Kuru up as a possible lynching. I think Form's had that consistant tone regarding Kuru throughout the game, in some ways poking suspicion (albeit using a 40 and a half foot poll so he can keep his distance from a messy situation), but at the same time explaining why he wouldn't vote for Kuru.

Yes. What's up with those votes, Fea dear? I was going to say something when I cross-posted, but I had to be moving quickly... and I'd hoped you'd explicate with a string of one-liner posts. Or something. But this is right out of the blue! The Kuru-suspicion not so much... but the bonus votes? Typically impulsive, maybe... or cobblery-deviant? I don't know...
-post 342

Trying to get suspicion rolling against Fea?

Albeit, I have a few misgivings because it's a tenuous feeling at best, but she's as far up my suspicion list as anyone is, and if it spurs Nog's one-man-bandwaggon in that direction rather than Fea's or Kuru's--well, that sits closest to my intuitions this evening.
-post 377

I think this is my biggest issue with Formendacil, how uncommitting he's been throughout (in this post he votes for Greenie), but it's been more than uncommitting. In Day 1, he sneakily shifted suspicion towards Nienna:

And, in other news, I'm still no closer to a vote. Well, maybe an inch or two. I'm concerned that Nienna's vote for Nogrod was made with the encouragement that I might vote in that direction.
-back tracking to post 248

And he did the same to the day 2 lynch - Kuru the next day, shifting suspicion towards him, but spending most of his time defending Kuru because of his defense of Kuru for Day 1. The problem is when push comes to shove, Formendacil goes in an opposite direction and makes a safe play. On Day 1 he casts a random vote for Nilp and Day 2, he votes for probably the person he thought was most suspicious (or said he was most suspicious of) however it's a safe play.

What's more striking about his vote for Greenie is there are no bonus votes with it. Well maybe he just wasn't confident? The thing is before he told Nogrod that he would go 'contra-Kentian' (great word by the way ) and prefer that Nogrod vote for Greenie. However, he really forces Nogrod into a tough choice, by choosing not to give Greenie any bonus votes. Nogrod new I wasn't going to vote for Greenie (and Formendacil knew I wouldn't either) so if Nogrod did want Greenie as an option (either to save himself or for another candidate) Nogrod would have to dump a lot of his bonus votes, while Formendacil would not.

The last thing is after his vote for Greenie, Formendacil does stick around and play a distant role at the same time chiming in about Kuru and me (post 380).

[Isabellkya]

Are you perhaps being a bit over dramatic here Nog?

Vote Tally (unless I missed one somewhere?):

Kent -> Brin(1). 2
Sally -> Kent. 1
Green -> Nog. 1
Fea -> Nog. 2


Nog, Brin 2. Kent 1.

[Isabellkya]

Why wouldn't the three want to cause confusion with their kills Kent? It distracts the village if the kills don't point in a clear direction.

Which begs the thought.
Perhaps part of the three's decision making process. They are going after people who are A) most Ordo looking, B) either going to be dreamed really early or not at all and C) aren't super suspects.

Because what more perfect set-up for the three, than to turn someone who has already been dreamed of by the Seer?

X'd with Nog.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Are you perhaps being a bit over dramatic here Nog?

Oh, I had forgotten that first vote by Kent...

But still I think you have the tally wrong.

Isn't it like this?

Kent -> Brin(1). 2
Sally -> Kent. 1
Green -> Nog. 1
Fea -> Nog. 2

Nog2, Brinn2. Kent1.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Nog, Brinn 2. Kent 1.

That's what the comma after "Nog" is for, Nog. "Nog and Brinn, two votes. Kent, one vote."

Edit: Fixed quote tag.

[Isabellkya]

Ah haha.
I suppose the comma does make it confusing.
Though I thought I'd put an & in there.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

What's more striking about his vote for Greenie is there are no bonus votes with it. Well maybe he just wasn't confident? The thing is before he told Nogrod that he would go 'contra-Kentian' (great word by the way ) and prefer that Nogrod vote for Greenie. However, he really forces Nogrod into a tough choice, by choosing not to give Greenie any bonus votes. Nogrod new I wasn't going to vote for Greenie (and Formendacil knew I wouldn't either) so if Nogrod did want Greenie as an option (either to save himself or for another candidate) Nogrod would have to dump a lot of his bonus votes, while Formendacil would not.

A good and an accurate description Kent! Appreciated! Even if it sounded familiar I hadn't quite grasped Form's role in it until now as you show it.

Now a good night for a few hours!

[Brinniel]

Pfft...two pages while I'm gone? Well, I'm just gonna comment on quotes as I go instead of reading everything first so I don't forget anything.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Well, if you really suspected Sally and Firefoot - and you were an ordo seeing nothing particularly good/bad in me and Kuru - wouldn't you have wished to persuade some others to see your point?

I didn't think I would need to do any serious persuading. Around the time I intended to make my vote I saw there were others concerned about Sally and Firefoot too. I thought they might vote in the same direction.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also, if you were a goodie you would have wanted to negotiate the lynch with the others. Why do you try to imply to us (in your earlier post toDay) you were having really a tough time deciding between Firefoot and Sally like it was something important (which it wasn't because you left your vote to the last possible instant so that no one could react to your vote) as meanwhile you don't give a damn to who gets lynched by not trying to influence the vote / negotiate it with others still to vote?

There was twenty minutes left. I'm a slow poster. There was no time for negotiations. It was a big rush at the end and everyone just did their own thing rather than work together.

I'm not sure why you're making such a big deal out of it that I mentioned I had trouble deciding between Sally and Firefoot. The reason I mentioned it was because I was complaining about all the last minute voting, which is hypocritical since I did it too. And I admit that was an error on my part and I wish I had voted earlier. I'll do my best to avoid letting it happen again.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Your idea of calling me the safe-voter or someone shying away from decisive voting is ridiculous even if you didn't notice that error of Nilp not highlighting his vote. Why would I waste four bonus votes for nothing when I'm about to be lynched? Really. At .59 I was still leading the tally. You think someone would love to be indecisive at that kind of minute?

Okay, I do accept that explanation. Nilp's vote was highlighted by the time you and I posted so I thought you already knew it counted when you made your vote.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I just tried to awaken people to the problem we have in our hands. If you think my theory is bad you should argue for a better one and not blame me for trying. The moment you come up with a better working plan I will abandon mine and change to yours.

I already do have my own plan: We shouldn't use our bonus votes frivolously but only when we feel confident that our suspect is evil. Because you are right; the baddies are dangerous with all those extra votes...but they'll be even more dangerous with all those extra votes if most of the innocents have few.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So we need to create an athmosphere where anyone having ten bonus-votes left feels s/he is going to be lynched because of it - or which would be better: we should force the baddies to defend their mate(s) with their bonus-votes, if we just got a good enough threat to them.

I already mentioned this but if you pressure everyone including innocents to use their bonus votes when they don't want to, it'll only increase the chances of a mislynch because they'll vote for someone they may not strongly suspect and later in the game when they are confident of their suspects, there will be little to no bonus votes left to use. And anyway, do you really think the baddies will definitely use their bonus votes to save their mates? Take a look at past games...there are plenty of players here who would be happy to sacrifice their mate to make themselves look good. I wouldn't be surprised if a wolf used some of their bonus votes against a mate...because who would suspect that?

Originally Posted by Kent

The 2nd scenario is just odd, because how would Firefoot know Agan was not the seer, believe Agan was an ordo, and decide to set her up as the seer for the wolves to go after that night - if Firefoot was not the seer herself?

I know the second scenario does seem a bit absurd and I didn't think it was likely, but the exact thing has occurred in past games where an ordo sets up another ordo to be killed...so I didn't want to eliminate the possibility.

Originally Posted by Kent

That person whether wolf or innocent will most likely use their bonus to save themselves, which is I think the bigger point, to start levelling out the field.

Yes, if that person is there to save/defend themselves. But not everyone sticks around until deadline and may not expect to be lynched.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Cool down Brinn, this is only a game. And you know I love you: this is pretty straightforwards, no sarcasm or smilies included.

Yes, I know that. I'm only angry with you for in-game reasons, not RL. So no worries.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now this is interesting. If you would manage to bag a wolf - what good would that be?
*Ponders about it: what good would there be of lynching a wolf toDay? Hard to see... what good would there be?

I didn't say there wasn't good in bagging a wolf, but that it's no good to use all my votes on one person, even if they are a wolf. Why? Because:

a) Even if I put a wolf strongly in the lead with 11 votes, it doesn't mean they'll get lynched. There may be several others that will do everything they can to save that person thinking they are innocent (or perhaps if they are a wolf saving their mate).

b) Even if that wolf gets lynched, will it necessarily be just because of me? Because maybe that person can get lynched without all those bonus votes if others suspect them enough. And yes, I may have used all my bonus votes on a wolf...but there are three baddies here, and four if you count the cobbler. So what if I need some of those bonus votes to help bag another wolf later? Well that's just too bad because there won't be any left.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The baddies will probably kill those innocents with the most votes left by Nights (see Firefoot with ten votes). Also they would like to keep their votes to themselves if they need not use them - and they, unlike us - know when they need to use them. And remember that Thuringwethil may suck ten votes from an innocent the Night before the baddies decide to make their final attack if there is one. Then they will have 40-50 votes to spend on one Day which we innocents can never stand up against.

Now if the baddies killed all the innocents with 10 bonus votes then kept all their votes to themselves, then they'd be making themselves pretty obvious targets, don't you think?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Just think there are three romantic heroes around with ten votes. One gets killed by Thurnigwethil and her/his ten extra votes are in the possession of the baddies the next Day. Then the two remaining ten-voters disagree with each other who's the wolf and vote different people.

Why do you keep going under the assumption that all the baddies will save their votes until the end? That's a really bad assumption to make..

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But you should actually convince us - well me at least - why what I said about your actions in the end of Day2 are not true to begin with. Getting angry or hurt is one way of trying to do it but I have seen such shows that this is not quite enough (remember Rikae back then really bringing all of us others to tears with her show - but many enough of us stood firm and lynched her, as the baddie she turned out to be).

Do you really think I'm trying to use my emotions as a way to convince you of somthing? I certainly hope not, because I don't do that. I'm a naturally sensitive person and when I get upset by something my emotions do tend to flood out and I honestly can't help it. But I'm doing my best to explain my actions with words; I'm not sure what else to say since you don't seem to believe any of my explanations. I voted for someone I found suspicious, but apparently that's not good enough.

Originally Posted by Shasta

I'm leaning towards Brinn being innocent right now, and would rather not see her go. She definitely has the air of an ordo who's irritated at being constantly suspected by the same person. Sidenote - has anyone else noticed that every time someone gets irritated with having to defend themselves, Nogrod brings up Rikae as an excuse to attack them anyway? I think it's happened, like... every game I've ever played with him in it.

Yeah, it is irritating to feel personally attacked. I'm not saying Nogrod isn't allowed to suspect or attack me at all, but I think sometimes players will cling onto something against someone and not bat an eyelash at anything they say in defense. Rune has done this with me and I think that's what Kent did to Kuru yesterDay. It doesn't necessarily mean that these people are guilty, but I feel it's a bit close minded.

And I also agree with you on the second part. Rikae's her own person and has her own tactics. Just because she has used emotions as an act before doesn't mean everyone else will do the same. And anyway, was she just acting in that game? I think Rikae has been genuinely irritated before, regardless of her role.

Originally Posted by Izzy

I'm a bit concerned with Gwath's multitude of posts. Why not organize into one epic one?

That's just Gwath's typical style of posting. He does this every game. I'm surprised you haven't noticed it before.

Originally Posted by Izzy

I think I may get what is not being said by that Shasta. Just because someone may get irritated or frustrated with defending themselves; doesn't mean it makes you innocent. Perhaps he is using Rikae as an example of putting on a good show in defense of herself to get off the lynch block?

That your acting skills should not be the ultimate decider in clearing yourself, when you are suspected.

No, open frustration does not necessarily make one innocent. But it also doesn't mean someone is just acting. I really think emotions have nothing to do with roles because both innocents and baddies can get equally frustrated so I don't think we should judge whether someone is innocent or guilty based off their emotions.

Originally Posted by Izzy

He seems jumpy and I'm not liking his interactions with Brin. They have both defended each other when there really wasn't a need for it.

When have I defended Shasta?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But the similarities between the two scenarios are scarce and thin indeed - and if Brinn actually suggested the similar thing would have happened here, it looks quite frivolous indeed. That was far from it!

I mean that was werewolf-history in the making when it happened. A perfect ploy to distract the wolves with a high risk two innocents trusting each other, and they managed to marshall it through. And surely Firefoot probably even doesn't know that kind of trick has been performed.

So Brinn was overstating that one.

I wasn't overstating anything. I opened it up as a possibility, but I never said it was a likely scenario.

---

Okay, I'm all caught up. Now onto my suspects.

Nogrod: For his aggression, pessimism, and tactics. I really don't like how he's going about voting and while it is important to get a baddie toDay, I feel like he's acting a bit melodramatic about our situation. I don't suspect Nogrod for attacking me, but more like how he's going about it. He's been twisting my words which gives me another reason to feel uncomfortable.

Kent: There's something about him that irks me. Is it just me or has he been following around Nogrod a lot? He just seems rather quick to trust him. I easily suspect someone who makes an effort to keep on an influential player's good side. Though I rather doubt both of them would be wolves...that'd be a bit too obvious.

Sally I'm still a bit uneasy about, though I do need to look at her again.

I'm becoming quite uncomfortable of Fea who keeps voting out of nowhere without explanation. This isn't Sally's game, so surely she can't have a posting requirement.

Other players I'd like to keep an eye on are Formy, Izzy, and Nilp.

[Isabellkya]

You defended Shasta in post #370. In response to Kuru's troubled thoughts over Shasta's vote and explanation.

[Isabellkya]

Whups, hit the wrong button.

I was talking about Gwath's near close to more than triple posting.

Why would you be keeping an eye on Form, Nilp and myself?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Alright, I'm going to bed. Both my two top suspects seem to be suspected equally by others, so I'm going to

++Gwathagor

because that one post I found just looks too much like a wolf trying to get a message to the cobbler.

[Kuruharan]

I'm very perplexed about Fea's behavior.

At this point just acting randomly and trying to be lynched isn't really doing the village a whole lot of good. I mean, honestly what is the point of laying out bait like that now? Mainly because at this point who is going to be left to interpret it?

Is she the cobbler, perhaps?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm very perplexed about Fea's behavior.

It's not that hard, sweetheart: I'm taking advantage of an opportunity to be scandalous. I've been deprived...

Consequently, my scandal of choice is flippant and unhelpful, as opposed to flirtatious and unhelpful, with unhelpful being a given due to the ordinariness of my role. I don't know anything, and I'm not ambitious enough to pretend that I do. Consequently, I am enjoying, as I said, scandalous behavior.

I'll do it in fishnets and stilettos if you prefer...

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

because that one post I found just looks too much like a wolf trying to get a message to the cobbler.

The resemblance is coincidental and unfortunate.

[satansaloser2005]

Okay I'm here and trying to catch up. Just happened to notice this and went

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Sally (10) - In post 430, she states, "The thing was that I was pretty sure you weren't innocent". Freudian slip? Maybe she's Grima. Also, the way she adds Gwath's explanation of his non-vote to her own just seems weird to me.

Did I really say that? I could have sworn I typed were innocent. Of course, I was also saying (at least I think it was the same post) that I was talking about him being gifted so it's possible that's what was going through my head and, as usual, I'm just horrible at expressing myself.

Back to business then. I noticed the comments regarding Fea's potential cobblerism and they interest me. The problem is that, again, we're talking about the cobbler and not the wolves. Not that we shouldn't get Grima but if we don't get wolves before too long we could be in big trouble, especially with the bonus votes complicating things. I'm just sayin'.

In regards to the considerations of me and Brinn being packmates, I'd just like to point out that I know for a fact (from previous games) that Brinn will throw her packmates under the bus. She may be planning to do it this game too, but it's not with me, I can promise you that.

[Isabellkya]

Kent -> Brin(1). 2
Sally -> Kent
Green -> Nog
Fea -> Nog. 2
Shasta -> Gwath
Gwath -> Sally
Form -> Brin(3). 6
Lari -> Nog(3). 6
Kuru -> Brin(6). 13

Brin 13. Nog 6. Kent, Gwath & Sally 1.


X'd since Kuru's #585. Added his vote.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

That's just Gwath's typical style of posting. He does this every game. I'm surprised you haven't noticed it before.

As you know all too well, after last game.

[Gwathagor]

Ok, I've made up my mind. I came very close to giving Nogrod the benefit of the doubt, but after reading Brinn's big long post #552, I'm leaning innocent for the present. So:

++Sally