WW LX - Mortal Men, doomed to die

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Nothing can be concluded from day1 alone, but the way she has started Day2 may indicate that she is a careful wolf.

Uh... care to share that one with the class, Rune?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Uh... care to share that one with the class, Rune?

You go into a debate about Kath was a no-trace kill and that is basicly all you had done. It is a very safe debate to get into, it is not the thing that will get you lynched, it might even make you look good.

There is nothing wrong with going into the debate, but when there is little else of substance then it make you look slightly evil to me.

I have not read your latest post yet, it might change my view. We are still early in the game so my view can still change relatively easy.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I seem to recall Wilwa about ready to vote for Lhuna - she said something about Lhuna creeping into her house in the dead of night to try to feast on her young, or something like that - so imagine my surprise when Wilwa did not in fact vote for Lhuna to be executed. Of course, I'll need to go back and check the wording but that's how I remember it. It's this kind of inconsistency which really gets me. I'm leaning towards thinking she's guilty but I'll confirm my opinion later.

Or does anyone see a problem with this?

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I seem to recall Wilwa about ready to vote for Lhuna - she said something about Lhuna creeping into her house in the dead of night to try to feast on her young, or something like that - so imagine my surprise when Wilwa did not in fact vote for Lhuna to be executed. Of course, I'll need to go back and check the wording but that's how I remember it. It's this kind of inconsistency which really gets me. I'm leaning towards thinking she's guilty but I'll confirm my opinion later.

Or does anyone see a problem with this?

You seem to forget, dear, that one cannot always vote for the player they find the most suspicious. Well, they can, but there's not always much point in it. For instance, if I found Lhuna and Nienna suspicious, and Lhuna slightly more so, but Nienna and Nilp were the people with the most votes and I thought Nilp was innocent, I'd be silly to vote for Lhuna (I believe we normally call it a throwaway) when I could use my vote to actually make a difference.


I'm currently trying to decide if Eomer's guilty or just has had too much rum.



EDIT: x'd with Nerwen

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

What has that to do with me or Wilwa, Sally?

Anyway, I'm a whisky man. No time for rum. That's for sailors and Disney-Pirate-Wannabes.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

What has that to do with me or Wilwa, Sally?

Anyway, I'm a whisky man. No time for rum. That's for sailors and Disney-Pirate-Wannabes.

You think it's odd that Wilwa suspected Lhuna but didn't vote her. I'm just bringing that particular fact to your attention, as it seemed you hadn't considered it.


I have to work on my paper, so you'll not be seeing too much of me for a while.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

You seem to forget, dear, that one cannot always vote for the player they find the most suspicious. Well, they can, but there's not always much point in it. For instance, if I found Lhuna and Nienna suspicious, and Lhuna slightly more so, but Nienna and Nilp were the people with the most votes and I thought Nilp was innocent, I'd be silly to vote for Lhuna (I believe we normally call it a throwaway) when I could use my vote to actually make a difference.

Not applicable, in this case– no-one else had more than one vote at the time Wilwa cast hers.

However, I may be missing something, but the fact is, I simply cannot find the post Eomer is talking about (where Wilwa expresses suspicion of Lhuna).

Eomer, are you sure you didn't imagine it?

EDIT: X'd with Sally.

[Nerwen]

Advance warning: I am going to have to vote within the next half-hour.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Not applicable, in this case– no-one else had more than one vote at the time Wilwa cast hers.

However, I may be missing something, but the fact is, I simply cannot find the post Eomer is talking about (where Wilwa expresses suspicion of Lhuna).

Eomer, are you sure you didn't imagine it?

EDIT: X'd with Sally.

That was my other problem (or rather my main problem) with his post, but I figured since I was in a rush I assumed I'd just missed her post or something. I'm sure Eomer would be kind enough to point it out.

And I just wanted to make sure Eomer had considered that may have entered into Wilwa's decision. The same still holds true with who she thought it was possible to lynch, rather than who it looked like was going to be lynched.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Well, people have become quite less industrious of late. Ah, well . . . since it is a good way of gathering one's thoughts--besides, a rereading of the thread can yield new information--I shall post a vote list here.

DAY 1 (times are in GMT +8, known innocents are underlined).

16:08 Brinn - Sally
Sally - 1

Process of elimination + randomness. Possible Wraith-on-Wraith.

17:14 Shasta - Nogrod
Sally - 1, Nogrod - 1

A rather hurried vote, perhaps one made due to ill feelings, and the fact that the recipient has been (and still is) a more eager participant in these proceedings, and therefore an easy target for slander, among other things. Combined with other factors (i.e. the NIGHT kill) I am inclined to think him innocent. (Will be wary of him, however, due to historical things.)

20:11 Nilp - Nilp
Sally - 1, Nogrod - 1, Nilp - 1

I must admit I missed doing that. I also missed doing that and living to tell the tale ( at Sally).

20:42 Rune - Izzy
Sally - 1, Nogrod - 1, Nilp - 1, Izzy - 1

He has gone for the under-the-radar types who have posted, and then voted for the one he thought was most sneaky. Took flak for his '98% random' addendum, which seemed to me an innocuous remark. Looks helpful today, so perhaps innocent.

20:52 Wilwa - Eomer
Sally - 1, Nogrod - 1, Nilp - 1, Izzy - 1, Eomer - 1

Process of elimination + coin flip (i.e. randomness). Possible Wraith-on-Wraith; in fact, I think it is. Combined with his, ah, interesting interaction with Eomer, I am suspicious of her.

23:44 Sally - Nogrod
Sally - 1, Nogrod - 2, Nilp - 1, Izzy - 1, Eomer - 1

'Darker motives', indeed. An excellent turn of phrase, and an excellent dodge of explanations, too. A tie-breaker vote and a possible bandwaggon starter, a vote highly suspected by many, myself included. (Sorry, luv, but I do have my duties. )

02:12 Lhuna - Legate
Sally - 1, Nogrod - 2, Nilp - 1, Izzy - 1, Eomer - 1, Legate - 1

Has gone after him consistently in previous posts, and I could see her points against him--more on that later. Probably innocent.

03:18 Kent - Rune
Sally - 1, Nogrod - 2, Nilp - 1, Izzy - 1, Eomer - 1, Legate - 1, Rune - 1

Latches on to the '98% random' comment. Combined with curious conversations with the aforementioned sorcerer I am suspicious of him.

03:24 Nienna - Sally
Sally - 2, Nogrod - 2, Nilp - 1, Izzy - 1, Eomer - 1, Legate - 1, Rune - 1

Goes after Sally for her vote. Curiously, he defends Nogrod despite his vociferous statements regarding her kind (I myself, perhaps, am in that group). Probably innocent, but will bear close watching.

03:52 Legate - Izzy
Sally - 2, Nogrod - 2, Nilp - 1, Izzy - 2, Eomer - 1, Legate - 1, Rune - 1

Has been going after Izzy in previous posts. (You and I, sir, will have to cross swords after all this is over. ) Vote looks innocent, but other aspects of his posting are not. I'll speak on that more later.

03:59 Izzy - Sally
Sally - 3, Nogrod - 2, Nilp - 1, Izzy - 2, Eomer - 1, Legate - 1, Rune - 1

First of the cross-votes. A vote to save herself and Nogrod.

03:59 Kath - Izzy
Sally - 3, Nogrod - 2, Nilp - 1, Izzy - 3, Eomer - 1, Legate - 1, Rune - 1

Second of the cross-votes. Went after Izzy for her controversial tie-keeping comment.

03: 59 Eomer - Izzy
Sally - 3, Nogrod - 2, Nilp - 1, Izzy - 4, Eomer - 1, Legate - 1, Rune - 1

Third of the cross-votes. He intended to save Nogrod, and he has been declaring suspicion of Izzy in previous posts--which, interestingly, started after Rune's vote. Hmmm. Combined with certain posts and a few curious interactions with Legate I am suspicious of him--more on that later.

04:00 Eönwë - Izzy
Sally - 3, Nogrod - 2, Nilp - 1, Izzy - 5, Eomer - 1, Legate - 1, Rune - 1

Fourth of the cross-votes. Chose by elimination, as he didn't want Nogrod dead and wary of lynching Sally. Hmmm. Will bear close watching.

04:01 Nogrod - Sally (did not count)
Sally - 3, Nogrod - 2, Nilp - 1, Izzy - 5, Eomer - 1, Legate - 1, Rune - 1

Has been going after Sally for her vote. Probably innocent, or a cool customer. Inclined to think the former.

No votes: Groin, Nerwen, Nogrod (late vote).

More on certain detail later.

[Brinniel]

Okay, I can't wait any longer, so:

++Eomer

For reasons I already explained.

I thought I would have more time but I've been distracted with finalising a decision for an apartment and I have a final shortly. Again, sorry for my cruddy participation so far; things should get better for me after Day 3.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, so now it seems... a pity people who posted less before seem that they cannot post more even now, which is pretty bad. Now this is actually becoming the main point that worries me and I just wish that on Day 3 everybody will be here and posting properly!

I cannot say how I feel about Brinn now - I quite like her points concerning the Kath-issue, that's reasonable, although everybody could be reasonable, right - and basically I agree with her suspicions of Eomer, but that's all I can react to in her posts - so in fact nothing that much. Nilp looks like heating up, that's good, I'm looking forward to seeing more than just a list from him (and I expect him to do so ). Eönwë actually seemed quite sensible yesterDay (given the fact that he came only late), and now - well, he does not raise my alarms, for one. Although again, he's perhaps bordering the group of people who just flow under my radar screen. The same would go for Shasta for example.

I am becoming slightly worried about wilwa, like I said before, but not to any particular extent. I should take a deeper look at Nerwen, sally or Kent... and I would like to see Lhuna and Nienna posting.

Well, still, probably the one I am worried about the most is Eomer for now. But, I know what. I am going to (at least briefly) re-read the thread now once again and try to reconsider everything once again.

[Nienna]

And I'm around and will be until deadline if anyone wants to talk things out.

On discussions already started:

- I think Kath was probably a no trail kill. I know I was not personally getting any seer vibes from her and it worries me that Eomer was saying that the wolves might have thought she was the seer. This doesn't speak well to Eomer's innocence. If he is a wolf and was getting seer vibes from Kath he might have talked the other wolves into killing her with the added bonus that she wouldn't leave a trail.

- I think the Izzy lynch was just a scramble at the end of the Day. It wasn't overly bandwagony but it may have had some wolfish help.

I'll be back in a few with a suspicion list.

Edit: x-ed with Sally and Legate

[Nogrod]

Well, you are all playing it too safe!

It's basically impossible to pick the wolves when every ordo is playing it safe.

Now where is this rant coming from? From the last Day's posting in the end as you all can't be baddies...

Wilwa was going to work and popped in three hours before the DL and Lhuna voted about two hours before. After that there were certain people around, namely: Kent, me, Izzy, Legate, Kath, Eönwë, Rune, Nienna, Eomer

Leaving out the known and dead innocents and myself (a known innocent to me) it leaves a list of: Kent, Legate, Eönwë, Rune, Nienna, Eomer.

Of these two gave their votes about an half an hour+ before the DL and never showed themselves after that. Namely Kent and Nienna. Both are very carefully positioned votes - and I could bet one of them or both didn't have to rush away from the computer so they probably hung around. But on what state of mind? And why didn't they come back to share their views?

Of course we have no way to say who else was coolly watching by as things unfolded but of these two we know they were there just half an hour before the DL.

Leaving also those two aside we get the list of: Legate, Eönwë, Rune, Eomer. So these were the people whom we do not know are innocents or not but stood there to the end.

Of these Rune concentrated on defending himself and disappeared when there was twenty minutes left. So he kind of goes to the similar kind of category with Kent and Nienna, only being less cautious.

Legate was pretty straightforward with saying he was for lynching Izzy. And even if she turned out innocent I think that was reasonable. The problem being that a wolf-Legate could have done exactly the same thing...

Eomer answers for Kent on behalf of Rune (making an indirect suspicion of Izzy by that) about half an hour before the DL. Then six minutes before lists the last votes deeming all of them ok or understandable save Sally's. Wants to save me and is happy tyo choose between Sally & Izzy (three minutes to DL).

Eönwë interestingly had been around consistently saying nothing. Twenty minutes before he manages to suspect Brinn (and possibly Sally) a little (referring to my suspicions). Ten minutes before he still concentrates on philology... Six minutes before comments on Kent (a point made by Izzy) ending up ambivalent about him. Then seems to be in a hurry notifying Sally (Kath that should be?) of posting a list at such a late hour. Finally chooses at zero hour wishing to save me and feeling bad to have killed Sally too many times and ends up with Izzy.

A few thoughts to follow...

[Kent2010]

Uh... care to share that one with the class, Rune?
-Nerwen

I can explain how I felt about your response to Kath's death, because I have nearly the same feeling as Rune.

Eomer apparently set some kind of trap about the reason Kath was killed and the people who have since come out and insisted Kath was a no-trail kill. I am in limbo about Eomer, because logically it makes sense, it is something I tried on Day 1 in my first game about the new feature of "bonus votes." So, Eomer's feelings about people claiming why Kath was obviously killed are logical, but I am in unsure about him, because anyone with confidence worries me. Eomer seems to be confident this caught a wraith, but there is a fallacy, and that is Eomer is assuming our wraiths are talking and are willing to respond. It might have worked, if we have gabby, type-happy wraiths. But it will fail miserably if we have silent, cautious wraiths.

I don't know about why wolves would kill who they do, I would imagine their first target would always be the seer, and someone's use of words may tip them off. But if so many people believe Kath was a no-trail kill then there has to be some kind of precedent in WW where the wolves target no-trail people? Eomer may have set some kind of trap, but he could have easily trapped innocents who are willingly participating and trying to figure out all the evidence, not wraiths laying low. Is that making sense?

Anyway, the reason I am wary of your response, is the way you are currently playing. Laying low, being in-character most of Day 1, and I admit my vision of baddies has been skewed from my first game. Your response is non-commital you seemingly support Eomer's statement about people assuring why Kath was killed, but then ponder the no-trace kill. You are playing the mediator to Eomer's aggressive confidence. Plus your response comes after Eomer's reveal that "the wraiths easily fell to his trap!," which makes me suspicious towards both of you.

Edit: I cross-posted with many

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

Your response is non-commital you seemingly support Eomer's statement about people assuring why Kath was killed, but then ponder the no-trace kill. You are playing the mediator to Eomer's aggressive confidence.

Kent, I was just trying to work out why the wolves would have chosen a no-trace kill (if indeed they did) rather than try for a gifted... motivations can be a clue to identity, you know.

[satansaloser2005]

Incidentally, I think there's been way too much talk about Kath and not much about everyone else.

(Sorry, I'll be restricted to one liners for a bit. Bear with me.)

[Kent2010]

I can be here for roughly the next hour than I have straight duties until half-an-hour before the deadline. So most likely I will have time to return and vote, but little else.

Kent, I was just trying to work out why the wolves would have chosen a no-trace kill (if indeed they did) rather than try for a gifted... motivations can be a clue to identity, you know.
-Nerwen

Maybe you are, I was just saying that Eomer is making an assumption about his Kath trap - and that is the wraiths would have responded to it and I am not convinced they would. It all depends upon what wraiths we have here, do we have wraiths that want to flaunt their dirty laundry to the village and rub it in our face? Or wraiths that want to remain silent and safe as much as possible? Eomer's move only finds the former, and I wonder how "easily" the wraiths fell for it as he claims. This is my first game with Eomer, and with many of you, but I get the feeling most here have been in WW for a long time, and I wonder if it was as easy as Eomer claims it to be why would experienced baddies fall for it? And what makes anyone believe a wraith would even respond to Eomer claiming Kath was a seer kill?

Most people made no comment, or in your case you mediated. Maybe you are a thinking, cautious, innocent (I mean I do know that wraiths are not the only ones capable of worrying about being lynched and being found suspicious). But my point I was trying to make is I question the assuredness that Eomer reached with his Kath-trap and therefor I question your subtle support of it.

Edit: more cross posting

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

You go into a debate about Kath was a no-trace kill and that is basicly all you had done. It is a very safe debate to get into, it is not the thing that will get you lynched, it might even make you look good.

??? I was speculating on the implications of the kill, not arguing on whether it was no-trace or not.

EDIT: X'd with Eomer.

[Nogrod]

It's funny how communities of people create common truths they all recite like parrots. My "aggressiviness" seems to be one of those saying out aloud of which is always accepted and creates nice bridges of understanding between people. It's nice to be such an indirect "community organiser" indeed. Quite nice visions for career-developement.

But really. I don't think I have ever done this but now I feel I have to at last.

I am not an aggressive, angry and humourless gaffer who plays with taste of blood in his mouth. Sorry. Wrong image.

I'll give you a few hints into reading my posting.

1) High content on self-irony and sarcasm involved, always.
2) Strict separation of what I think about the people playing with me and what I say in-game of them, always.
3) I like to try people, push them to react (how else do you unbalance a careful wolfie?) - that's not aggression, it's testing (I do it always as an innocent and pretend to do it when a baddie) and trying to force others to play.
4) It's hard to express this one (language barriers) but hopefully you get it: I'm always serious about the game (in a sense of doing my best, giving a full effort time allowing) but never serious (in a sense of being grave or without humour).
5) Exception to the rules above, especially rule 4: on morning hours (+3GMT) when innocent / gifted cornered by baddies and facing lynching and having taken too many glasses of wine... I know that's bad.

But that's just a guideline for reading. Feel free to suspect, vote and lynch me if you see it reasonable or tactically good. I just hate to be looked at as a grumpy old man - which this post kind of makes me on a second thought...

Okay. Some actual commments concerning toDay's issues to follow soonish.

EDIT: X'd with a host of posts it seems...

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It's funny how communities of people create common truths they all recite like parrots. My "aggressiviness" seems to be one of those saying out aloud of which is always accepted and creates nice bridges of understanding between people. It's nice to be such an indirect "community organiser" indeed. Quite nice visions for career-developement.

But really. I don't think I have ever done this but now I feel I have to at last.

I am not an aggressive, angry and humourless gaffer who plays with taste of blood in his mouth. Sorry. Wrong image.

I'll give you a few hints into reading my posting.

1) High content on self-irony and sarcasm involved, always.
2) Strict separation of what I think about the people playing with me and what I say in-game of them, always.
3) I like to try people, push them to react (how else do you unbalance a careful wolfie?) - that's not aggression, it's testing (I do it always as an innocent and pretend to do it when a baddie) and trying to force others to play.
4) It's hard to express this one (language barriers) but hopefully you get it: I'm always serious about the game (in a sense of doing my best, giving a full effort time allowing) but never serious (in a sense of being grave or without humour).
5) Exception to the rules above, especially rule 4: on morning hours (+3GMT) when innocent / gifted cornered by baddies and facing lynching and having taken too many glasses of wine... I know that's bad.

But that's just a guideline for reading. Feel free to suspect, vote and lynch me if you see it reasonable or tactically good. I just hate to be looked at as a grumpy old man - which this post kind of makes me on a second thought...

Okay. Some actual commments concerning toDay's issues to follow soonish.

EDIT: X'd with a host of posts it seems...

*hugs*

I didn't think you were harsh is in grumpy, dear one. I meant harsh in the game sense. You're still everyone's favorite yellow galoshes wearing guy.


EDIT: x'd with Eomer and Kent. I'd take you up on the Spam-a-Thon, but I haven't the time to come up with the material. Make it up in your head; I'm sure it'll be enjoyable as always. Maybe next game.

[Kent2010]

And I don't know what Kent's talking about. Traps? That sounds a bit complex.

Interesting how many people bit at that.

"No! No! It can't possibly be a Seer hint! It had to be because Kath left no trail!"

Why so jumpy? I even asked you not to jump at me?
-Eomer

I would guess biting a trap might be pretty painful, but you were attempting to get responses about your posts on why Kath was killed and you think you got a wraith with it = what I woud call a trap But I wonder if you trapped wraiths or innocents, and if it was innocents, I wonder if it was intentional bait to get the rest of us to follow?

Note to Nogrod, what I mean when I say "aggressive" you might call spirit, vigor - passionate and take no crap. It is not the negative connotation you might associate with the "American cowboy mentality."

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

One and a half posts = obsessed?

The "haha" was cause I was joking about that part . I didn't mean to make it sound like that was the reason I was unsure of you.

Just popped in quick between checking my e-mails, heading out now and am now pretty much positive that I won't be able to make it back.