For in that sleep of death what dreams may come.

[Bêthberry]

Or, more precisely, whose, and how?

This topic is about a real Barrow Downs dream--not to be confused with our own Barrow Downs dreams down Mirth-ways--the one Merry had after he, Pippin and Sam were taken by the Barrow Wight.

The dream has been discussed in our chapter by chapter discussion of Fog on the Barrow Downs, particularly by Boro88, Estelyn Telcontar, davem, and Lalwende, but I think more can be said of the topic, so here goes. And bear with all the quotes!

First, some context. Tom Bombadil has answered Frodo's call and come to rescue the hobbits from the dread and gloom of the Barrow Wight's horror. Sam, Pippin and Merry wake up and find themselves clothed in what could be the decayed remains of burial shrouds and relics of those who had been laid to rest in the Barrow.

Originally Posted by Merry, Fog on the Barrow Downs

'What in the name of wonder?' began Merry, feeling the golden circlet that had slipped over one eye. Then he stopped, and a shadow came over his face, and he closed his eyes. 'Of course, I remember!' he said. 'The men of Carn Dum came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!' He clutched at his breast. 'No! No!' he said, opening his eyes. 'What am I saying? I have been dreaming.'

A strange dream. It appears he has remembered or relived the death of someone, possibly the person whose winding sheet he now wears.

Then, once the hobbits have recovered some warmth into their bodies, Tom completes the breaking and scattering of the spell of the mound (Tolkien's terminology) and raids the tomb, providing hobbits with special knives. Those who are rereading LotR know that the blade Merry carries is special, for it will be this blade that he uses to stab the Witch King and destroy the spell which protects the King of the Nazgul.

Here's what Tom says about the blades as he distributes them.

Originally Posted by Tom, Fog on the Barrow Downs

Then he told them that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Wsternesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dum in the Land of Angmar.

'Few now remember them,' Tom mumured, 'yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless.'

The hobbits did not understand his words, but as he spoke they had a vision as it were of a great expanse of years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of Men, tall and grim with bright swords, and last came one a star on his brow. Then the vision faded, and they were back in the sunlit world.

Tom's words have collapsed time, giving the hobbits a vision of . . . what past battle. Appendix A provides essential historical background here to the spread of the Witch-King's malevolence in destroying Cardolan, one of the three kingdoms in the line of Isildur. Boro quoted a bit in the thread linked to above, but the entire passage is intriguing.

Originally Posted by Appendix A, Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur

A great host came out of Angmar in 1409, and crossing the river entered Cardolan and surrounded Weathertop. The Dunedain were defeated and Arveleg [the king] was slain. The Tower of Amon Sul was burned and razed; but the palantir was saved and carried back in retreat to Fornost, Rhudaur was occupied by evil Men subject to Angmar, and the Dunedain that remained there were slain or fled west. Cardolan was ravaged. Araphor son of Arveleg was not yet full grown, but he was valaint, and with aid from Cirdan he repelled the enemy from Fornost and the North Downs. A remnant of the faithful among the Dunedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns) or took refuge in the Forest behind. . . . It was at this time that an end came of the Dunedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.

[The Appendix then moves into a quotation, part of Tolkien's literary apparatus to make the Appendix appear to be based upon ancient annals.]

'It is said that the mounds of Tyrn Gorthad, as the Barrowdowns were called of old, are very ancient, and that many were built in the day of the old world of the First Age by the forefathers of the Edain, before they crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand, of which Lindon is all that now remains. Those hills (Tyrn Gorthad/Barrowdowns) were therefore revered by the Dunedain after their return; and there many of their lords and kings were buried. (Some say that the mound in which the Ring-bearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409).'

Was it this prince whose death Merry dreams of? How fitting that the blade stilled by the Witch King will eventually help to bring him down. But what gives Merry this power of dream? The death shroud and the eerie spell of the Downs? Or is Merry reliving a previous life (well, in this case, death). Is this one tiny example of a possibility that Merry is here reliving a past death? If elves can reincarnate, could this be a suggestion that Men could, too?

Also intriguing is Tom's statement that the spirits of those Men killed still wander the land, guarding and protecting the unwary. Is this an example of Men's fear remaining in Middle earth? Think of the recent discussion of Laws and Customs among the Eldar.

So, how does Merry come to this dream? The supernatural effects of the burial grounds? The shroud with which the Barrow Wight draped him? A lingering fear trying to warn Merry? Past life regression?

Any thoughts, wights?

[Mnemosyne]

Initial thoughts...

I'm going to have to say no on the "Mannish reincarnation" theory because Men and Elves are normally set up as foils to one another; and even if this is hobbits we're talking about, mortals are a Primary World race so I think Tolkien would be wary of including things about their afterlife that were so diametrically opposed to his Primary World faith. Elves are supposed to be bound to the world, not Men--though obviously the point about some Mannish spirits lingering weakens my argument somewhat.

I had always considered the case to be one of possession. All four hobbits in the books go through moments when they know not what they say, and then come to themselves afterwards. In the case of Sam and Frodo (in Shelob's lair) this seems to be something positive: either osanwe courtesy of Galadriel (idea stolen shamelessly from the CbC discussion) or maybe some sort of innate inner Elvishness buried deep in the subconscious suddenly manifesting itself*?

But Merry's case seems to be a whole lot closer to Pippin's experience after he looks into the Palantir: harrowing to the hobbit and creepy to the reader. In the Necromancy thread some people have briefly touched on the idea of what exactly the Barrow-wights were. Could this have been a spirit waylaid by Sauron's power on his way to Mandos and bound there?

And of course this still leaves the question: why Merry and not Pippin or Sam?



*One could, perhaps, argue Merry's dream as an inner Dunadan manifesting itself, but that makes a lot less sense because it's so darn specific; and hobbits seem to have been influenced more by the Elves directly (at least in their distant past) than by Men influenced by Elves.

[alatar]

In regards to this quote:

Then he told them that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dum in the Land of Angmar.

'Few now remember them,' Tom mumured, 'yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless.'

'Some' refers to 'Men of Westernesse,' meaning living descendants such as Aragorn and his band of Dúnedain. No such thing as good spirits haunting the night, keeping evil at bay.

And no on the reincarnation as well. Merry, due to the spell of the Wight, was seeing a vision of the past. Assumedly the Palantíri can see into the past. This means that 'the past' can be 'seen,' much like watching home movies - pull one out of the cabinet, place it in the VHS or DVD viewer and - poof! - you get your vision of the past. Anyway, so Merry, while waiting to be sacrificed by the Wight, was being tortured as well by having to watch some home wight movies.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

So, how does Merry come to this dream? The supernatural effects of the burial grounds? The shroud with which the Barrow Wight draped him? A lingering fear trying to warn Merry? Past life regression?

Any thoughts, wights?

Fascinating topic.
I don't believe in the lingering mannish fear, and certainly not in past life memories. But I believe the Barrow-Downs, the place itself had its own memories, much like Hollin:

'That is true,' said Legolas. `But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them: Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.'

Also, I think it was not the shroud, but the golden circlet Merry wore (and fingered) at the moment had triggered the memories. It likely belonged to the Last Prince of Cardolan.
Inanimate objects seem to keep memories of their own: Narsil "remembers" so to say killing Sauron, Gurthang remembers the slaying of Beleg etc... that's why heirlooms have such value. Remember how Tom took the brooch of some unknown lady from the same hoard? Perhaps it was not a simple memento, but also could induce some vivid memories?

[Aiwendil]

Bethberry wrote:

Or is Merry reliving a previous life (well, in this case, death). Is this one tiny example of a possibility that Merry is here reliving a past death? If elves can reincarnate, could this be a suggestion that Men could, too?

Interesting idea, but I must say I don't at all buy it. Tolkien seems to have been quite settled on the idea that a (perhaps the) fundamental difference between Elves and Men was this: Elvish spirits remain in the world after they die; Mannish spirits depart 'elsewhither'.

Of course, there are a very few exceptions, but these are all very special and very well recorded cases. Beren was reincarnated, but only before his spirit 'sought elsewhither' and left Arda. Turin is prophecized to return at the Dagor Dagorath, 'returning from the Doom of Men' - but this is of course a one-shot, as it were, and doesn't come about until the world's end. Gandalf was sent back by Iluvatar, but only because he had a very particular mission to fulfill and because he was, after all, really a Maia and merely incarnated in human form.

Moreover, Tolkien eventually rejected rebirth even for the Elves, opting instead for literal reincarnation; their adult bodies were simply re-created. It seems to have been philosophical considerations that lead him to this.

That isn't to say that human fear can't perhaps linger in the world in some cases before taking Iluvatar's Gift and departing. We certainly see that in the Dead Men of Dunharrow, for instance, and I think in the Barrow-wights as well. I have always assumed that a houseless fea living in the barrow was attempting to take control of Merry's hroa, and in the process momentarily imparted its memories to him. Interestingly, though, the Barrow-wights themselves don't seem to be houseless fear - it seems they still control their (un)dead bodies. Or perhaps, being dead, they are no longer inextricably attached to their corpses, and the fea of the Barrow-wight was seeking to take control of the stronger hroa of one of the Hobbits.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Most interesting topic!

A pity I'm not sure if I will be able to think of it enough now to contribute much, but at least something...

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Interesting idea, but I must say I don't at all buy it. Tolkien seems to have been quite settled on the idea that a (perhaps the) fundamental difference between Elves and Men was this: Elvish spirits remain in the world after they die; Mannish spirits depart 'elsewhither'.

Of course, there are a very few exceptions, but these are all very special and very well recorded cases. Beren was reincarnated, but only before his spirit 'sought elsewhither' and left Arda. Turin is prophecized to return at the Dagor Dagorath, 'returning from the Doom of Men' - but this is of course a one-shot, as it were, and doesn't come about until the world's end. Gandalf was sent back by Iluvatar, but only because he had a very particular mission to fulfill and because he was, after all, really a Maia and merely incarnated in human form.

Yes, I certainly disagree with any kind of reincarnation-like things when it comes to Men (and Hobbits), and especially: even the moments you mention were not really reincarnation. Or, they were: in the sense of taking it in the purely material way, simply, reappearing again after death. But the term "reincarnation" being mostly used for the return of a, let's say, spirit into a new different body, perhaps we are closer to the Judeo-Christian concept of "resurrection" - which signifies returning of basically the same person, or at least the preservation of identity (perhaps with a few "differences in quality" - well, something like Gandalf the White in contrary to Gandalf the Grey, indeed!). Certainly Túrin would be the same Túrin, wouldn't he? Likewise Beren was rather resurrected - I wonder if he even still lacked one hand, by the way.

Moreover, I would find any ideas of reincarnation in Middle-Earth dismissed by what is said in the Appendices about the Dwarves - there is something about Durin and the Dwarves believing that he returns from time to time (indeed, reincarnates) - and the comment after this sentence is something like "because they have many strange beliefs", which basically says "well you see, Dwarves are weird, they believe in something us Hobbits - and Men and Elves, relatedly, because that's who we are writing this for - find really weird".

[Aiwendil]

I think three varieties of return from the dead can be differentiated:

Rebirth: The spirit returns in the body of a newly-born infant. This was Tolkien's original idea for the Elves, and apparently for the Dwarf-fathers, but was later dropped for metaphysical reasons. This is sometimes called 'reincarnation' in the context of Hinduism, Buddhism, etc., but I don't think Tolkien every referred to it that way.

Reincarnation: A new (adult) body is made, fully formed, for the returning spirit. This was Tolkien's later idea for the manner of the Elves' return from death.

Resurrection: The original body, still intact, is re-inhabited by the spirit. This was apparently Tolkien's later idea for the manner of the Dwarf-fathers' return (from, I believe, 'Of Dwarves and Men').

The names could perhaps be quibbled with (and actually, I don't recall Tolkien using the word 'resurrection'), but I think the different concepts are clearly delineated. The Turin and Gandalf examples are clearly reincarnation. The Beren example was either reincarnation or resurrection. But the important points are that: 1. Tolkien eventually rejected the idea of 'rebirth' entirely, and 2. the occurrence of any of these things for the spirit of a human is quite exceptional.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Resurrection: The original body, still intact, is re-inhabited by the spirit.

I disagree with this definition; resurrected bodies, in the Christian usage of the word, with which Tolkien would be most familiar, are not the identical, original bodies but are a special kind, same in appearance, but differing in their material, perhaps? This accounts for the ability to disappear into the spiritual realm after resurrection.

This concept seems to me to apply to resurrected Elves and Gandalf (and, as a human exception, Beren); I tend to agree with those who consider the Barrow situation as something completely different: a kind of inhabitance, something like possession.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I disagree with this definition; resurrected bodies, in the Christian usage of the word, with which Tolkien would be most familiar, are not the identical, original bodies but are a special kind, same in appearance, but differing in their material, perhaps? This accounts for the ability to disappear into the spiritual realm after resurrection.

This concept seems to me to apply to resurrected Elves and Gandalf (and, as a human exception, Beren); I tend to agree with those who consider the Barrow situation as something completely different: a kind of inhabitance, something like possession.

Exactly (for both).

I think the concept is rather:

Resurrection - a dead person is brought back to life again, but in a different quality (absolutely perfect example: Gandalf. Parallel: [Judeo]-Christian term of resurrection)

Reincarnation - in the sense of rebirth: the same person is born again anew in a new body - similar to the former, but a new one still - as a baby (typical example: Dwarven belief of all the Durins returning - I guess they were reborn as babies, or it seems so logically from the narration in the Appendices: it was not so that a fully grown Durin VII. would all of a sudden appear among people. Parallel: Hindu term of reincarnation)

The Barrow scene was really, in my opinion, something like possession, just as Esty said: Merry's memories got sort of mixed with the thoughts of the spirit.

As for why it was Merry who was so prone to all these things, he always stroke me as the most "deep" of all the Hobbits, in the sense of "having close to the metaphysical" - well, of course, with the exception of Frodo - but Merry was the one who kept meeting the Nazgul all the time (in Bree, on Pelennor) and generally being the most "thoughtful", or so it seemed to me. So why not him...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I guess they [Dwarves] were reborn as babies, or it seems so logically from the narration in the Appendices: it was not so that a fully grown Durin VII. would all of a sudden appear among people.

Apparently not:

The Dwarves add that at that time Aule gained them also this privilege that distinguished them from Elves and Men: that the spirit of each of the Fathers (such as Durin) should, at the end of the long span of life alotted to Dwarves, fall asleep, but then lie in a tomb of its own body, at rest, and there its weariness and any hurts that had befallen it should be amended. Then after long years he should arise and take up his kingdom again.

--HME XII.383

and

... the reappearance, at long intervals, of the person of one of the Dwarf-fathers, in the lines of their kings - e.g. especially Durin - is not when examined probably one of rebirth, but of the preservation of the body of a former King Durin (say) to which at intervals his spirit would return.

-- ibid.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Apparently not:

Nice, but uncanonical. Because the canonical works oppose that:

Originally Posted by LotR Appendix A III, Durin's Folk

There he lived so long that he was known far and wide as Durin the Deathless. Yet in the end he died before the Elder Days had passed, and his tomb was in Khazad-dûm; but his line never failed, and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and their fate in the world.

The emphasised word is of course mine. But this refers to obvious reincarnation (using the terminology I outlined above), not merely the revival of the old body.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Estelyn

I disagree with this definition

Originally Posted by Legate

Resurrection - a dead person is brought back to life again, but in a different quality (absolutely perfect example: Gandalf. Parallel: [Judeo]-Christian term of resurrection)

Reincarnation - in the sense of rebirth: the same person is born again anew in a new body - similar to the former, but a new one still - as a baby (typical example: Dwarven belief of all the Durins returning - I guess they were reborn as babies, or it seems so logically from the narration in the Appendices: it was not so that a fully grown Durin VII. would all of a sudden appear among people. Parallel: Hindu term of reincarnation)

As I said, the names I used can be quibbled with. But I think my delineation of three different varieties of return from the dead stands: 1. spirit returns in a new-born infant; 2. adult body is re-made; 3. corpse is re-inhabited by spirit. As far as names go, Tolkien's usage of 'reincarnation' seems to match type 2, contrary to the use of the word in the context of Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. 'Resurrection' comes from 'resurge', which to me suggests a literal rising up of the formerly dead body, but of course I realize that this isn't how it's used in the Christian context.

Nice, but uncanonical.

We probably shouldn't open this particular Pandora's box here - but of course, this comment begs the question: what is 'canonical'?

I do think, however, that a case could be made that LotR, being drawn from the Red Book of Westmarch, and essentially based on Numenorean and Elvish lore as understood by Hobbits, might not be the ultimate authority on the Dwarvish afterlife.

[Bêthberry]

Wow, this thread has run on! Great to see it sparked such good comments.

I tend to agree, as Aiwendil put it, that the fundamental difference between the fates of Men and Elves would be a very strong case against the fea of a fallen Man being responsible for Merry's dream.

However, I want to add another pot to this kettle or, rather, relate these concepts of reincarnation to what Verlyn flieger callsa larger theme running through Tolkien’s major works, that the past is not just tributary to the present, but also inhabits and immediately affects it. Particularly interesting is Tolkien's use of the dream memory.

Originally Posted by Fleiger

Drawing on such concepts as Carl Jung’s theory of archetypes and the collective unconscious, and J. W. Dunne’s notion of serial memory, Tolkien in three separate
examples used the concept of dream-memory as the psychic or psychological
connector/channel between characters in the narrative present and a distant past beyond their waking memory. Two of these examples are his unfinished science fiction stories, “The Lost Road” and “The Notion Club Papers,” written nearly ten years apart but making use of the same concept and method. This treats timetravel as a psychic or psychological mode whereby two modern-day Englishmen travel back to Númenor through the unconscious memories of
a succession of ever more ancient forebears. The third example, and by
all odds the most extreme and puzzling, involves the anomalous experience
of Merry Brandybuck at the barrow in The Lord of the Rings.

Tolkien puts forth memory as the vehicle for time travel in his unfinished science fiction work. Instead of Jung's collective unconscious, Tolkien posited an ancestral unconscious and this was clearly for Men, not Elves. And his characters experience the same dream of drowning that permeated his own dreams. (It's in the Letters, which I don't have at hand right now.) Yet Tolkien's stories remained unfinished, perhaps because of his reservations over the implications.

Tom Shippy suggested that Merry takes on the personality of a body in the barrow. It can't be one of the Witch King's Men from Carn Dum, for they won the battle (which wasn't fought on the Downs, anyway, but farther north, as I recall) and Merry's dream comes from one among those who lost and who was ritually buried in some kind of royal--the golden circlet--barrow. The Appendix suggests this is a prince. Somehow, not an ancestral voice, but a voice connected by experience with the Dark Lord speaks into Merry's unconscious mind. And then, later, when Merry meets Theoden in Rohan, he speaks of his relationship to the King as like that of a father and son. I've always thought that a bit odd, responding to a foreign king with filial feelings.

Can it be that one who died at the hands of the Witch King long ago reaches out to Merry, who will worst the Witch King. Or was the memory imbedded in the Barrow Downs themselves. The Downs were a portal to the past, after all, and in LotR even rocks may have memories.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

We probably shouldn't open this particular Pandora's box here - but of course, this comment begs the question: what is 'canonical'?

Well I am not opening anything, but the point was rather that some people consider HoME completely uncanonical, some people don't, but all consider LotR canonical. And when LotR and HoME conflict, people of course take LotR: and LotR says what I just quoted.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't accept 'canonicity' as a useful term when discussing Tolkien. The most we can say is that "he said X at this time, and Y at this time." We can go further where Y clearly supplanted X, as in successive drafts of the same story. But I see no reason to discount Tolkien's latest considered opinion on a matter just because an (apparent) other opinion saw print in the 1950s.

[Mithadan]

Bethberry asks,

Can it be that one who died at the hands of the Witch King long ago reaches out to Merry, who will worst the Witch King. Or was the memory imbedded in the Barrow Downs themselves. The Downs were a portal to the past, after all, and in LotR even rocks may have memories.

I think that it is the Barrow-Wight who is to blame for Merry's nightmare rather than the Downs themselves. Our four Hobbit friends were under its spell and were slumbering as they awaited their death. The Wights were not the shades of those buried at the Downs, but rather evil spirits who later came and inhabited the mounds. Laws and Customs of the Eldar makes specific mention of the fact that the unhoused fear of Elves at times become anchored to particular places. So the Wights may be such spirits perhaps sent there by Sauron or the Witch King. Clearly evil, we can assume the Wight delighted in tormenting his victims. The dreams are likely a form of such torment, communicated to his victims by osanwe.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, not osanwe, which was a transferance of verbal or pre-verbal thought, experienced by the recipient as a 'voice.' Osanwe didn't transmit sense-data.

Tolkien it seems viewed body and soul in incarnates as partaking somewhat of each other's nature, being made for each other; in Elves, ultimately their faded hroar would exist merely as memories imprinted on their fear. I think it not unlikely that, under the magic of the barrow, a corpse would retasin some imprint of its last living thoughts, and that these would have been picked up by the animating wight, perhaps passed on through a series of possessed bodies- of which Merry perhaps was targeted to be the next.

Of course T had thought none of this through when he wrote this chapter (which was never really revised); one thought he had at the time that Black Riders were Barrow-wights, or closely related

[Mithalwen]

I wonder if Merry's experience at Bree, so soon after is significant - when 'He seemed to be asleep. "I thought I had fallen into deep water," he says to me, when I shook him' (Nob) adnhe says "I had an ugly dream". Aragorn says it is the Black Breath (and Eowyn has bad dreams when she experienced it also). Maybe Merry is more sensitive to such things either generally (as a Bucklander closer to the edge of the Shire and more aware of the dangers beyond, and also more curious and educated than most), or made more sensitive by his experiences in the Barrow.

[Bêthberry]

Nice idea, Mithadan, but as WCH has already pointed out, osanwe kenta was "direct thought transference" and Merry felt the blade in his heart and not just remembered it.

Also, I thought that the ability had atrophied down the years--ages--once language had developed and that by the Third Age only very few had the ability. We are told how Melkor was able to instill his thought, but was osanwe possible with unconscious minds?

Further, it seems a bit of a canonical conundrum to point to an essay Tolkien wrote c. 1959 when the Barrow Downs chapter was written in 1938, between Lost Roads (1936) and the Notion Club papers (1945-46). I think WCH has already said this.


Mithalwen, I think it is interesting that Merry's explanation at Bree concerns being overwhelmed by deep waters.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Mithalwen, I think it is interesting that Merry's explanation at Bree concerns being overwhelmed by deep waters.

Because of the strong link between water and death in Middle Earth?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Because of the strong link between water and death in Middle Earth?

No. I don't necesarily see a link between water per se and death in Middle earth.

As for the fine tunings of rebirth, reincarnation, resurrection it strikes me that Flieger is right when she suggests that Tolkien modified the theologically difficult question of reincarnation to the less problematic concept of memory time travel or that term he used in the Letters, hoarding memory (if I am recalling it correctly).

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I think that it is the Barrow-Wight who is to blame for Merry's nightmare rather than the Downs themselves. Our four Hobbit friends were under its spell and were slumbering as they awaited their death. The Wights were not the shades of those buried at the Downs, but rather evil spirits who later came and inhabited the mounds. Laws and Customs of the Eldar makes specific mention of the fact that the unhoused fear of Elves at times become anchored to particular places. So the Wights may be such spirits perhaps sent there by Sauron or the Witch King. Clearly evil, we can assume the Wight delighted in tormenting his victims. The dreams are likely a form of such torment, communicated to his victims by osanwe.

I don't think the Wight is to blame for Merry's vivid dream.
Firstly the dream happened after the Wight had already been chased away by Tom.
Secondly the WK sent the Wights from Angmar to inhabit the Barrows after the Plague of 1636, while the fighting Merry dreamed of and the fall of the Last Prince of Cardolan happened in 1409 - more than 200 years before the coming of the wights. By this time, the fear of the buried Dunedain would be long gone to Mandos. So how would the Wight itself learn the details of the fighting?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

No. I don't necesarily see a link between water per se and death in Middle earth.

Oh I do. There seem to be a disproportionate number of drownings, shipwrecks, being lost in snow and ice, let alone Boromir's funeral, dear bought fish and Legolas's message from Galadriel being interpreted as speaking openly of his death. Any body of water larger than a bathtub seems inherently perilous.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Oh I do. There seem to be a disproportionate number of drownings, shipwrecks, being lost in snow and ice, let alone Boromir's funeral, dear bought fish and Legolas's message from Galadriel being interpreted as speaking openly of his death. Any body of water larger than a bathtub seems inherently perilous.

Ah now, your qualification of larger than a bathtub is as qualifying as my per se. I can't refer to the Bath Song!

You would see water more generally and I would see its applications. Drowning of course is an important theme. But snow and ice! Come now, it is not their aqueous properties that are a danger but their temperature (or lack thereof).

What fishers of Rings there are. Yes, Isildur and the Anduin had a fateful meeting, but it was the Ring's choice to leave his finger which ruined his plan (aside from his own intransigence), and it was poisoned orc arrows that killed him, not the River. And the tributary Gladden River was merely the scene of the conflict between Smeagol and Deagol; it was again the Ring that was perilous.

And Boromir's funeral, there the water is not itself dangerous but symbolic of the journey out, birth beyond the limits of Arda.

With The Forbidden Pool, Gollum risks death, but more importantly it provides an opportunity for Frodo to display what he has learnt of mercy.

In The House of Bombadil (sorry, I know some would like to eliminate Tom and Goldberry from the book as well as the movie but I won't), water is a powerful agent of the healing which the hobbits receive. In Rivendell, Frodo's response to the elven song is to "dream of music that turned into running water." There is a white stream which flows through Edoras, the water of which is used to wash clean the stones of defilement from Wormtongue. The Ents and Huorns use water undammed to achieve victory over Saruman.

And of course there is the famous Ent-draught itself with its amazing restorative powers. I suppose the cups out of which Merry and Pippin drank were smaller than a bath-tub, but the ent water itself is of a wider quantity.

So I wouldn't say that water is always associate with death in Middle-earth, especially since it is the domain of Ulmo. Symbolically it can be purification, rebirth, or baptism, as well as doom. Water is liminal in LotR but not necessarily always perilous.

But this takes us away from the topic. I first mentioned the details of Merry's experience under the influence of the Black Riders because it relates drowning with the dark side. It is Merry, after all, who dreams of drowning even under the safety and security of Tom and Goldberry. His is given Tolkien's personal nightmare and he is the one who helps overcome part of that dark despair.

As I said, the names I used can be quibbled with. But I think my delineation of three different varieties of return from the dead stands: 1. spirit returns in a new-born infant; 2. adult body is re-made; 3. corpse is re-inhabited by spirit. As far as names go, Tolkien's usage of 'reincarnation' seems to match type 2, contrary to the use of the word in the context of Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. 'Resurrection' comes from 'resurge', which to me suggests a literal rising up of the formerly dead body, but of course I realize that this isn't how it's used in the Christian context.

Didn't Tolkien in one of his letters use the term "serial longevity" in order to avoid the sticky concept reincarnation?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Didn't Tolkien in one of his letters use the term "serial longevity" in order to avoid the sticky concept reincarnation?

No, he was using the phrase to point out that the Elves weren't precisely "immortal."

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

No, he was using the phrase to point out that the Elves weren't precisely "immortal."

um huh. I hear maiar dancing on heads of treble clefs.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

So I wouldn't say that water is always associate with death in Middle-earth, especially since it is the domain of Ulmo. Symbolically it can be purification, rebirth, or baptism, as well as doom. Water is liminal in LotR but not necessarily always perilous.

Perhaps I'll get myself in trouble for following this up, but I feel the baptism/rebirth comment needs expanding on, because saying that water seems linked to rebirth/baptism doesn't so much negate Mith's point about death as underscore it.

In Christian theology, anyway, baptism has always been associated with death. Baptism is the death to self, death to the old self--death that enables rebirth. When someone is pushed under the water (literally or figuratively) within the baptism ritual, this is their death, and the rising from the water is the rebirth.

Within the context of Tolkien's Catholicism, this may in fact be a point wherein his faith shines through the cracks of Middle-earth. My point, regardless, is that insofar as there is something redemptive about water, this does not remove the association with death.

Or, in other words, I agree with Mith.

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Bêthberry;595840]Ah now, your qualification of larger than a bathtub is as qualifying as my per se. I can't refer to the Bath Song!



So I wouldn't say that water is always associate with death in Middle-earth, especially since it is the domain of Ulmo. Symbolically it can be purification, rebirth, or baptism, as well as doom. Water is liminal in LotR but not necessarily always perilous.

But this takes us away from the topic. I first mentioned the details of Merry's experience under the influence of the Black Riders because it relates drowning with the dark side. It is Merry, after all, who dreams of drowning even under the safety and security of Tom and Goldberry. His is given Tolkien's personal nightmare and he is the one who helps overcome part of that dark despair.

QUOTE]

At the risk of going off topic it does say specifically in the prologue to LOTR that the Sea was a token of Death for hobbits. And while I accept that water can represent rebirth that surely must also imply Death! Anyway I may "have a thread coming on" so I will leave this for now..and that purveyor of sub-vogon poetry.

[Bêthberry]

Rather than waiting any longer for others to reply, I want to thank Formy and Mith for their helpful contributions here.

It's good to have a Catholic perspective for those of us who aren't part of Roman rites.

Originally Posted by Formy

In Christian theology, anyway, baptism has always been associated with death. Baptism is the death to self, death to the old self--death that enables rebirth. When someone is pushed under the water (literally or figuratively) within the baptism ritual, this is their death, and the rising from the water is the rebirth.

Originally Posted by Luther's Large Catechism, 1529

To put it most simply, the power, effect, benefit, fruit, and purpose of Baptism is to save. No one is baptized in order to become a prince, but as the words say, to "be saved". To be saved, we know, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil and to enter into the kingdom of Christ and live with him forever. [my bolding]

While it is true that in most Christian sects baptism means the remission of the Original Sin which brought death into the world, the focus is on redemption, the eternal life into which one is entering. So it would be undertaken with joy and hope, (among other emotions) as befits an essential sacrament that promises Life Everlasting. This is in keeping with my comment that

Originally Posted by Bethberry

Water is liminal in LotR but not necessarily always perilous.

Originally Posted by Mith

At the risk of going off topic it does say specifically in the prologue to LOTR that the Sea was a token of Death for hobbits.

So clearly Tom and Goldberry were giving the hobbits a different experience of water.

Thanks for reminding me of the point in the Prologue, though, as I also found something there which takes us back to the topic of Merry's barrow dream.

Originally Posted by Prologue, LotR

While there was still a king they [hobbits] were in name his subjects, but they were, in fact, ruled by their own chieftains and meddled not at all with events in the world outside. To the last battle at Fornost with the Witch-lord of Angmar they sent some bowmen to the aid of the king, or so they maintained, though no tales of Men record it. But in that war the North Kingdom ended;

So Tolkien has framed Merry's dream with historical context in the opening of LotR and at its conclusion, in The Appendix. He clearly had put more than passing thought into the dream young Meriadoc had.

[Bruce MacCulloch]

In reference to the whole water/death thing that has been brought up, I would like to note that water is the barrier between Middle Earth and the Undying Lands. Sailing over the ocean as a metaphor for going to Heaven/the afterlife does not seem at all a far stretch.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Nice idea, Mithadan, but as WCH has already pointed out, osanwe kenta was "direct thought transference" and Merry felt the blade in his heart and not just remembered it.

I disagree. Merry was not actually feeling a blade in his heart, he only briefly "thought" he was. There is a great difference between the two. I don't believe sensory data was being transferred at all.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Again, osanwe was essentially verbal. Think of Gandalf's "voice" in Frodo's mind on Amon Hen.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I disagree. Merry was not actually feeling a blade in his heart, he only briefly "thought" he was. There is a great difference between the two. I don't believe sensory data was being transferred at all.

Whatever it was that affected Merry, it was enough to make him clutch at his breast after he spoke, "Ah, the spear in my heart." I don't think he's being a melodramatic actor here. And then he comes to regular consciousness.

As Esty suggested on the Chapter by Chapter thread, it appears to be the golden circlet that slips over his eyes that instigates the dream. Can inanimate objects use osanwe?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Whatever it was that affected Merry, it was enough to make him clutch at his breast after he spoke, "Ah, the spear in my heart." I don't think he's being a melodramatic actor here. And then he comes to regular consciousness.

As Esty suggested on the Chapter by Chapter thread, it appears to be the golden circlet that slips over his eyes that instigates the dream. Can inanimate objects use osanwe?

And yet the fact remains that there was no spear piercing Merry. It was a mental thing of some sort and not physical. I am not saying that it was osanwe as it is strictly defined but I think it was at least something similar.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bruce MacCulloch

In reference to the whole water/death thing that has been brought up, I would like to note that water is the barrier between Middle Earth and the Undying Lands. Sailing over the ocean as a metaphor for going to Heaven/the afterlife does not seem at all a far stretch.

Indeed and it is often used as such in "our world" culture too - Arthur being taken to Avalon, the Styx of Greek mythology, the Pilgrim's Progress, '("When the day that he must go hence was come, many accompanied him to the river-side, into which as he went, he said, "Death, where is thy sting?" And as he went down deeper, he said, "Grave, where is thy victory?" So he passed over, and all the trumpets sounded for him on the other side.',) Tennyson's "Crossing the Bar" and many others.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

As Esty suggested on the Chapter by Chapter thread, it appears to be the golden circlet that slips over his eyes that instigates the dream. Can inanimate objects use osanwe?

The Palantir that Denethor held retained the image of his burning hands, so it seems that physical objects can retain 'echoes' of events. But how that works is another question (I don't know whether Tolkien ever attempted to account for that effect.) I wouldn't favour the 'reincarnation' theory in Merry's case - as the sceptical Theosophist once said, "Of course I remember past lives - but are they mine?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

I wouldn't favour the 'reincarnation' theory in Merry's case - as the sceptical Theosophist once said, "Of course I remember past lives - but are they mine?

And we all know the corollary to that: "Who am I?"

I wouldn't favour it either for Merry's dream. In the time travel stories, the link between past and present is far more elaborately developed. In Merry's dream, there is no way to account for a genetic or linquistic link between the person who had the experience and Merry.

Originally Posted by Kuru

And yet the fact remains that there was no spear piercing Merry. It was a mental thing of some sort and not physical. I am not saying that it was osanwe as it is strictly defined but I think it was at least something similar.

Well, the slip of the golden circlet over Merry's eye was definitely tactile.

[Kuruharan]

But the spear wasn't.

I don't think we can say with such confidence that the circlet is what caused him to remember the dream. I don't think Merry was really awake. He was still largely under the Barrow Wight's spell.

[alatar]

Not sure we need to look too long and deep for an explanation for Merry's dream/vision. Though Tolkien may not have read much on the topic, he - like most - are aware of how dreams work. If Merry were in a semi-sleeping state, and the Barrow Wight was 'talking 'bout the glory days,' these thoughts could have taken shape in Merry's dream state. Like when you watch a movie and later that night you dream of something from the same.

The Wight was most likely chanting about the good old days when they slew the King of Cardolan, and Merry, hearing this, dreamt of the same. Any small discomfort in his chest area could have been dreamed as the spear-thrust, like when your legs are in a cramped position and you dream that you cannot run.

Sure, it's a magical world, and so we can add to this explanation, but needn't need to.

[davem]

Originally Posted by alatar

If Merry were in a semi-sleeping state, and the Barrow Wight was 'talking 'bout the glory days,' these thoughts could have taken shape in Merry's dream state. Like when you watch a movie and later that night you dream of something from the same.

This is certainly a possible explanation. Of course it kind of kills an interesting discussion stone dead. Another explanation (one which Flieger goes with) is that Tolkien is playing with (or perhaps 'exploring') ideas about time, space & the nature of consciousness - is Merry's conciousness bound within his own time & space, or not? Flieger cites the analogy of two observers' experience of a river - one in a boat, experiencing from 'ground level' the twists & turns, the trees & fields, the sun & wind, serially, one after another in time. The second observer is in an aircraft, looking down & seeing the whole river as a whole - what the first observer may take hours to experience the second will see in a single 'flash'.

So, we have two completely different ways of experiencing the same thing. The observer in the aircraft, has an extra freedom - he or she can choose to land at any point - in fact, if the aircraft is a helicopter, he or she could land at any point (a particular tree, or house) & then go back aloft & drop to any other point they chose.

Think of the first observer as representing our everyday experience of time - one event following another. The second observer represents a kind of (theoretical) 'higher' consciousness above the first, but able to 'drop in' on any point. Except in Tolkien's use here this higher consciousness can 'drop in' to serial lives.

This would merely be another possible interpretation (& a quite outlandish one at that) if Tolkien hadn't been exploring this idea if 'serial consciousnesses' in other works ("The Lost Road pre LotR & Notion Club Papers during a break from writing LotR). As with ideas about time which he was playing with during the writing of LotR (no time was to have passed while the Fellowship was in Lorien at one stagbe in the development of the story) what we have with Merry's experience is Tolkien exploring some very interesting ideas about what consciousness in & where it is 'located'. Clearly for Tolkien consciousness is not 'bound' to any particular place or time - Galadriel's Mirror allows both Frodo & Sam to see the future - how? Because in some way it enables their 'observer 1' consciousness to get into the aircraft, climb & look down at events from 'observer 2's' perspective. In the same way, Frodo's dream in Bombadil's house (where he sees the Undying Lands is actually a vision of the end of the Journey he is just beginning. He has got into the aircraft & is able to 'look down' on a different part of the River.)

Or wone could use the analogy of a book - when we read a book we are in the position of observer one, following events serially, seeing what comes next. But the book we hold in our hands contains the whole story, & we could jump in at any point, experience the world of the story from the place & time of any of the characters - in fact, like Frodo we too could skip from 'The House of Tom Bombadil' to 'The Grey Havens' omitting completely the intervening 900 pages.....