For in that sleep of death what dreams may come.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I disagree. Merry was not actually feeling a blade in his heart, he only briefly "thought" he was. There is a great difference between the two. I don't believe sensory data was being transferred at all.

Whatever it was that affected Merry, it was enough to make him clutch at his breast after he spoke, "Ah, the spear in my heart." I don't think he's being a melodramatic actor here. And then he comes to regular consciousness.

As Esty suggested on the Chapter by Chapter thread, it appears to be the golden circlet that slips over his eyes that instigates the dream. Can inanimate objects use osanwe?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Whatever it was that affected Merry, it was enough to make him clutch at his breast after he spoke, "Ah, the spear in my heart." I don't think he's being a melodramatic actor here. And then he comes to regular consciousness.

As Esty suggested on the Chapter by Chapter thread, it appears to be the golden circlet that slips over his eyes that instigates the dream. Can inanimate objects use osanwe?

And yet the fact remains that there was no spear piercing Merry. It was a mental thing of some sort and not physical. I am not saying that it was osanwe as it is strictly defined but I think it was at least something similar.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

As Esty suggested on the Chapter by Chapter thread, it appears to be the golden circlet that slips over his eyes that instigates the dream. Can inanimate objects use osanwe?

The Palantir that Denethor held retained the image of his burning hands, so it seems that physical objects can retain 'echoes' of events. But how that works is another question (I don't know whether Tolkien ever attempted to account for that effect.) I wouldn't favour the 'reincarnation' theory in Merry's case - as the sceptical Theosophist once said, "Of course I remember past lives - but are they mine?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

I wouldn't favour the 'reincarnation' theory in Merry's case - as the sceptical Theosophist once said, "Of course I remember past lives - but are they mine?

And we all know the corollary to that: "Who am I?"

I wouldn't favour it either for Merry's dream. In the time travel stories, the link between past and present is far more elaborately developed. In Merry's dream, there is no way to account for a genetic or linquistic link between the person who had the experience and Merry.

Originally Posted by Kuru

And yet the fact remains that there was no spear piercing Merry. It was a mental thing of some sort and not physical. I am not saying that it was osanwe as it is strictly defined but I think it was at least something similar.

Well, the slip of the golden circlet over Merry's eye was definitely tactile.

[Kuruharan]

But the spear wasn't.

I don't think we can say with such confidence that the circlet is what caused him to remember the dream. I don't think Merry was really awake. He was still largely under the Barrow Wight's spell.

[alatar]

Not sure we need to look too long and deep for an explanation for Merry's dream/vision. Though Tolkien may not have read much on the topic, he - like most - are aware of how dreams work. If Merry were in a semi-sleeping state, and the Barrow Wight was 'talking 'bout the glory days,' these thoughts could have taken shape in Merry's dream state. Like when you watch a movie and later that night you dream of something from the same.

The Wight was most likely chanting about the good old days when they slew the King of Cardolan, and Merry, hearing this, dreamt of the same. Any small discomfort in his chest area could have been dreamed as the spear-thrust, like when your legs are in a cramped position and you dream that you cannot run.

Sure, it's a magical world, and so we can add to this explanation, but needn't need to.

[davem]

Originally Posted by alatar

If Merry were in a semi-sleeping state, and the Barrow Wight was 'talking 'bout the glory days,' these thoughts could have taken shape in Merry's dream state. Like when you watch a movie and later that night you dream of something from the same.

This is certainly a possible explanation. Of course it kind of kills an interesting discussion stone dead. Another explanation (one which Flieger goes with) is that Tolkien is playing with (or perhaps 'exploring') ideas about time, space & the nature of consciousness - is Merry's conciousness bound within his own time & space, or not? Flieger cites the analogy of two observers' experience of a river - one in a boat, experiencing from 'ground level' the twists & turns, the trees & fields, the sun & wind, serially, one after another in time. The second observer is in an aircraft, looking down & seeing the whole river as a whole - what the first observer may take hours to experience the second will see in a single 'flash'.

So, we have two completely different ways of experiencing the same thing. The observer in the aircraft, has an extra freedom - he or she can choose to land at any point - in fact, if the aircraft is a helicopter, he or she could land at any point (a particular tree, or house) & then go back aloft & drop to any other point they chose.

Think of the first observer as representing our everyday experience of time - one event following another. The second observer represents a kind of (theoretical) 'higher' consciousness above the first, but able to 'drop in' on any point. Except in Tolkien's use here this higher consciousness can 'drop in' to serial lives.

This would merely be another possible interpretation (& a quite outlandish one at that) if Tolkien hadn't been exploring this idea if 'serial consciousnesses' in other works ("The Lost Road pre LotR & Notion Club Papers during a break from writing LotR). As with ideas about time which he was playing with during the writing of LotR (no time was to have passed while the Fellowship was in Lorien at one stagbe in the development of the story) what we have with Merry's experience is Tolkien exploring some very interesting ideas about what consciousness in & where it is 'located'. Clearly for Tolkien consciousness is not 'bound' to any particular place or time - Galadriel's Mirror allows both Frodo & Sam to see the future - how? Because in some way it enables their 'observer 1' consciousness to get into the aircraft, climb & look down at events from 'observer 2's' perspective. In the same way, Frodo's dream in Bombadil's house (where he sees the Undying Lands is actually a vision of the end of the Journey he is just beginning. He has got into the aircraft & is able to 'look down' on a different part of the River.)

Or wone could use the analogy of a book - when we read a book we are in the position of observer one, following events serially, seeing what comes next. But the book we hold in our hands contains the whole story, & we could jump in at any point, experience the world of the story from the place & time of any of the characters - in fact, like Frodo we too could skip from 'The House of Tom Bombadil' to 'The Grey Havens' omitting completely the intervening 900 pages.....

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by davem

...we could jump in at any point, experience the world of the story from the place & time of any of the characters - in fact, like Frodo we too could skip from 'The House of Tom Bombadil' to 'The Grey Havens' omitting completely the intervening 900 pages.....

That sounds like a summary of the premise for Jasper Fforde's 'Thursday Next' books, and wouldn't it be fun to jump into LotR or the Hobbit - provided we could keep out of danger's way in doing so?!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

This is certainly a possible explanation. Of course it kind of kills an interesting discussion stone dead.

Oops! Wouldn't be the first time a post of mine dried up a thread. That said, a physical explanation needn't make the discussion 'stone dead' as I was only speaking of Merry - the receiver. What of the transmitter?

Or wone could use the analogy of a book - when we read a book we are in the position of observer one, following events serially, seeing what comes next. But the book we hold in our hands contains the whole story, & we could jump in at any point, experience the world of the story from the place & time of any of the characters - in fact, like Frodo we too could skip from 'The House of Tom Bombadil' to 'The Grey Havens' omitting completely the intervening 900 pages.....

The Wight may be like one of these books, or maybe we're all books, but in this case the Wight is stuck in a certain chapter - cursed there, perhaps? This assumes that we accept that the Wight is there for some good reason in the first place, and hasn't moved on. Regardless, it *is* there, and when it captures one of the living, it sends out a signal that replays a specific battle, which, from the point of view of the Wight, was a memory or replay of a victorious moment. Was this due to the memory being vivid, was the pre-Wight being slain at that time, and so reliving the last few moments that it had recorded (like an airplane's black box), or did it send out this memory instinctively in order to increase the despair/fear in its victims, whereby making them more easily sacrificed?