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05-12-2009, 12:48 PM | #41 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Mind you - I did read a review of HM's 70th Anniversary Hobbit hardback on Amazon.com complaining that the glued binding was terrible..... I suspect we're now at the stage of having to buy the 'super-de-luxe' Harper Collins editions for £250-350 if we want decent Tolkien hardbacks (not that I'm planning to indulge myself.....). The only modern hardbacks that don't leaving me feeling ripped off are the Folio Society volumes I occasionally treat meself to. I can't help feeling that all publishers are trying to push us towards e-books by churning out the most attrociously produced, over-priced volumes they possibly can. I can't recall the last hardback I saw with a proper sewn binding that wasn't produced by Folio. S&G, contents-wise though, is amazingly good. |
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05-12-2009, 08:05 PM | #42 | |
Late Istar
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No funky spellings, though - fortunately, HM doesn't inflict any 'Americanization' on us, unlike the U.S. publishers of certain other English books (Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone? Oy vey!) |
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05-12-2009, 11:14 PM | #43 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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And a negative review, citation courtesy of our friends over on TheOneRing.net:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/b...en-review.html It would seem someone peed in this guy's Cheerios. "Flogging a dead Norse", although somewhat witty in an LOL, internet-chat sense, is quite inane in a critique of a serious work, and his continued reliance on name-dropping Peter Jackson and the fans of the movie is rather missing the point. Everyone knows the fans of the movie can't read.
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05-13-2009, 02:42 AM | #44 |
Auspicious Wraith
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That is a quite outrageously irrelevant review by this Sanderson guy. No critical worth whatsoever.
Shippey's review was highly enjoyable to read; a man who knows and enjoys the subject, so clearly he can tell the reader a little something.
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05-13-2009, 11:23 AM | #45 |
Cryptic Aura
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There's already been a fair bit of discussion of these reviews on the thread which announced the publication of S & G: Oh My Goodness Me!!!. You might want to check it out.
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05-13-2009, 11:25 AM | #46 | ||
Blithe Spirit
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That Shippey review is brilliant. In fact, I think I'm in love.
Two highlights: Quote:
And: Quote:
Meanwhile, my computer is refusing to load the Telegraph review. Judging by what you guys have said about it, my computer clearly has taste...
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05-13-2009, 11:27 AM | #47 |
Cryptic Aura
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Given these comments about the poor binding of the hardcover, I'm thinking of waiting for the paperback, although I am very interested in reading this.
Anyone have any info on when the paperback might be out?
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05-13-2009, 11:43 AM | #48 | |||
Blithe Spirit
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Ok, I've just read the Telegraph review. How embarrassing. ...."based on the Norse saga, the Elder Edda". About as well-informed as saying "based on the epic poem, Oliver Twist."
Anyway, back to the much more interesting Shippey review. Quote:
And this: Quote:
Quote:
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05-13-2009, 12:03 PM | #49 | |
Pilgrim Soul
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*retreats imagining a face off between Dr Theophilus Grantly and Gandalf...*
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05-13-2009, 01:20 PM | #50 |
Wight
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I am not understanding the issue people are having with Sanderson's critique. Compared to Shippey's it is pretty juvenile, but they are writing to two different audiences.
Shippey is a leading Tolkien authority and is an expert in this field, naturally you expect not only a good, but honest, review of the book. However brilliant of a review he writes, it is for a specialized and smaller audience. It's for people who seriously want to engage and hold a scholarly conversation about the book. I don't know who this Sanderson guy is, but he is writing for a national newspaper, a different and larger targetted audience. To compare the two and discount one as being completely irrelevant is something I don't understand. Sanderson mentions Jackson twice, he does not "continually" drop Jackson's name. He brings up film's success in the beginning and at the end makes a statement that refers to the Jackson 'fan franchise' probably going to be confused by the two stories. I don't like his tone in the first paragraph, but overall his review does bring up a poignant point. The movies targetted a larger, more general audience, and film fans will most likely not find it interesting, because The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun is for a specialized audience, not like the Lord of the Rings (book or film) which attracted a wide, diverse fanbase. Whether his assumption that if the films were not successful this book would not have the hype around it, is accurate or not, I really don't know. However, the point is worth considering, because of the burst in published works by Tolkien (or books about Tolkien/LOTR) has grown since the success of the movies. So, you do wonder whether this is a marketing ploy that is attempting to capitalize on the film's fan base - Tolkien is a contemporary popular author, and has remained one since the popularity of LOTR. What I took from Sanderson's review is you can't overlook the burst in getting "everything Tolkien" since the movies, and the attempt to capitalize on his sustained popularity. Plus, his opinion that the general film fan base will not be interested in this book. That might not be true, and it might not really seem necessary to say, but the review shouldn't be immediately discounted because you don't agree with the review, or it's not at the level of Shippey. What are you going to expect from a publication in a national newspaper? I have seen just as many reviews giving positive reviews on books that make me wonder if the reviewer was the author's spouse! However, that doesn't mean these should be discounted as simply being popular hogwash not worth the time of serious "intellectuals."
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an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind Last edited by Kent2010; 05-13-2009 at 01:24 PM. |
05-13-2009, 01:49 PM | #51 |
Pilgrim Soul
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The books were enduringly popular before the films came out - LOTR was voted book of the century in the UK before and The Hobbit is one of the booksellers old faithfuls....
Yes the films probably did bring new readers - I seldom go to the cinema these days (logistical nightmare)and I can't be the only person who coughed up the cash for the love of Tolkien rather than an appreciation of the works of Peter Jackson. No one ever seems to consider mind that the films may have benefitted from a strong pre-existing Tolkien fanbase.... I am glad if the films meant that old books were reissued and new ones published but the films aren't the reason I buy them - I waited a couple of decades to get my mitts on the Road goes ever on and to complete my HoME. Tolkien bashing is terribly fashionable amongst the British Intelligentsia and they love to use the films as another stick to bash him with. Tolkien never expected everyone to like his work and nor do I, but when critics make basic errors of fact and gear their review to an irresistible pun you do have to suspect lazy journalism rather than objective reviewing. One of the reviewers of CoH said that Thingol was the silliest name in all Tolkien thereby proving just how little he must have read
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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05-13-2009, 02:15 PM | #52 | |||
Blithe Spirit
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I've no problem with a reviewer saying the book's mass-market targeting might be misguided given rather scholarly niche of the subject matter. However, when he starts trying to give a literary response to the poetry the it becomes rather painful: Quote:
And then... Quote:
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05-13-2009, 02:31 PM | #53 | ||||
Wight
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Quote:
But my point about Sanderson's review is exactly what you bring up: Quote:
Beyond assuming the film fanbase would be left confused by the book, he doesn't use the movies to bash the books. That make the review at least worthy of conversation and debate, and that is why I didn't understand why it has been easily discounted. It can't be held up to the level of Shippey, because this is Shippey's area of expertise and he always gives worthy, honest reviews, as he did for the movies. It is a superficial review, but what can one expect when you write a review for a newspaper. Ink costs money, and you are expected to state your point and move on, there is no luxury to provide an in-depth thoughtful review. What Sanderson brought up was a reasonable question and logical opinion that the movie fan base will probably not like the book - because it is not like LOTR and it could be confusing. He comes off sounding condescending in the first paragraph, but he gave his review and brought up some things I thought were worthy to mention. And he did not even have to revert to making "Turin" jabs. Edit: Quote:
Quote:
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an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind Last edited by Kent2010; 05-13-2009 at 02:48 PM. |
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05-13-2009, 02:54 PM | #54 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Most of the later works were issued pre-film (Silmarillion, UT, HoME...). I don't see that this one would not have been issued without the films though maybe with a lot less fuss.
The Telegraph is a broadsheet newspaper and has a huge circulation (and I am a subscriber!) - it should at least get its facts right.... slightly disturbing considering it's main current field of activity...
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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05-13-2009, 03:01 PM | #55 | |
Wight
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05-13-2009, 03:11 PM | #56 |
Pilgrim Soul
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The Telegraph is the biggest selling "quality paper" with an average daily circulation of over 840,000 - ok some of them probably get it mainly for the crossword, Matt, and the sport coverage, but it is big enough for some accuracy to be expected.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
05-13-2009, 03:14 PM | #57 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Not many reviews of S&G worth reading so far. Certainly, John Garth's http://entertainment.timesonline.co....cle6193162.ece is very good & Christopher Tolkien's Q&A is a gift http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009...rd-gudrun-poem.
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05-13-2009, 08:53 PM | #58 | ||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Quote:
Quote:
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05-14-2009, 04:19 AM | #59 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Moderator's note
Two threads on this subject have been merged here to make it easier for all to keep up with the discussion. Enjoy!
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05-15-2009, 08:47 AM | #60 |
Late Istar
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Well, I've read it and rather enjoyed it. I was surprised initially by how different in tone and effect these lays are from Tolkien's Middle-earth-related lays, the 'Lay of Leithian' and, particularly, the alliterative 'Children of Hurin'. Tolkien's comments on the differences between Old English and Old Norse verse could equally well describe the differences between his lays of Middle-earth and of the old North. 'Sigurd' and 'Gudrun' are far shorter, more terse; they make use of quick, bold strokes and flashes of imagery rather than fully fleshed narrative. Even the individual half-lines are shorter; there's nary a syllable more than is absolutely needed in any of them. This produces a far more markedly rhythmic effect than in Tolkien's more English alliterative verse, but this comes at the cost of a great number of inversions and un-proselike word orderings; there was the occasional sentence that I had to read twice to parse.
I agree with some of the reviewers linked to that the 'Lay of Gudrun' is the better of the two. I think the reasons for this may be related to the stylistic points mentioned above. The action of 'Gudrun' is far more concentrated, limited to just a few episodes, than that of the 'Lay of the Volsungs', and it seems to lend itself to the style of this verse more than the latter. I thought several times as I was reading it that the 'Lay of the Volsungs' might be served better by Tolkien's English-style alliterative verse (the kind used in the alliterative 'Children of Hurin'). This is certainly not to say that I didn't enjoy it; and some episodes (e.g. the death of Sigurd) were very well done. On the other hand, one episode that I thought a little disappointing was the slaying of Fafnir. As a matter of fact, I was a bit surprised at how little a mark Fafnir himself makes upon the poem, considering Tolkien's opinion of him as 'the prince of all dragons'. The chief element that Tolkien added to the story, the role appointed for Sigurd in the Ragnarok, is a well-placed stroke. It at once lends an overarching purpose to the narrative and explains the sometimes confusing role that Odin plays in it. It also makes the story less of an 'amoral' one (whether that's good or bad is, I suppose, a matter of taste). And, of course, it only strengthens the association between Sigurd and Turin. With other, smaller, changes, Tolkien does a very good job of making sense out of confusing or contradictory points in the sources. The commentary and explanatory material provided by Christopher Tolkien (and largely drawn from lectures and notes by his father) is wonderful. I particularly enjoyed the appendix on the origin of the legends, which is better than all the other brief treatments of that topic that I've read combined. In the commentary, Christopher Tolkien compares in some detail the stories found in these Lays with those in their sources, the Volsunga Saga, the Edda of Snorri Sturluson, and various poems from the so-called 'Elder Edda'. |
05-16-2009, 03:29 PM | #61 | |
Pilgrim Soul
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Thank you ... I have had a look at the volume in the bookshop and wil probably risk the normal hardback unless I can find and amazing deal on the special edition.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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05-17-2009, 12:40 PM | #62 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Oh, the HM isn't remotely a "high-quality" binding; simply that their mass-market bindings have remained essentially unchanged since the 70's, whereas HC (and other UK publishers) have been getting progressively cheaper and shoddier.
My ca. 1973 H-M trilogy after years of use/abuse suffered broken backs, and I had to rehang them; and the size and weight of the 1992 one-volume Alan Lee was too much for the binding to handle and didn't last long at all.
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05-17-2009, 01:01 PM | #63 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Oh, I didn't want to pick on HC in particular (though even their 'de-luxe Collector's editions' of Tolkien's works are shoddy - 'quarter binding' is supposed to be either cloth or leather, not paper!). As I've stated, Folio Society editions are uniformly well produced, with sewn bindings, & often at half the price of the HC 'de-luxe'. Luckily their LotR, Hobbit & Silmarillion editions are widely available from dealers - often for less than the cost of the HC hardbacks. If only they produced editions of all Tolkien's works.....
If Folio can produce quality books at not much more than the cost of HC's 'standard' hardbacks & still turn a profit one has to ask why HC can turn out such poorly made volumes. |
05-17-2009, 01:55 PM | #64 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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H-M's 'deluxe' LR 50th is pretty nice- not up to Eaton standard, but fully bound in decent if thin leather, nice paper, with signatures sewn the old-fashioned way and hung flatfoot, and gilt edgesl to boot. I understand that there were quality-control problems with early examples (esp. those shipped to Amazon), but those apparently had been worked out by the time I got mine.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 05-17-2009 at 02:03 PM. |
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05-17-2009, 02:44 PM | #65 |
Illustrious Ulair
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(Hoping that this thread is not going too far off topic...) I think its about time that publishers bit the bullet & forgot about the usual hardback release followed a year later by a paperback. Go for paperback/ebook/high quality hardback simultaneous release (sorry to bang on about the Folio society but if you look here you can see how a publishing company can produce high quality books at a decent price - between £25-£50 in most cases, & so much less than the HC 'collector's' editions. Leave the mass market hardback out altogether. http://www.foliosociety.com/pages/crafting-fine-books - ). That way the collectors can go for decent books & the general reader can get hold of the text straight away at an affordable price. If Folio can do it at that price so can HC.
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05-21-2009, 09:03 PM | #66 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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My own personal take...
...from the perspective of somebody who is an utter novice when it comes to Norse mythology.
As a general rule I don't enjoy poetry very much (I know, I'm an insufferable cretin) so I have to admit that I was approaching this book more as a learning opportunity. It didn't take long, though, before I really started enjoying myself. There truly is a vigor in these verses that I was not expecting that carried me away to the "unnamed North"...at least for awhile. Once familiar historical places and personages started to be mentioned my historically geared brain started taking over. I do seem to be in something of a minority in having enjoyed the Lay of the Volsungs more than the Lay of Gudrun as I enjoyed the epic sweep of time and characters the first encompassed. I did notice a number of parallels or at least similarities with the Turin story, particularly with the slaying of Fafnir and the dwarf Andvari's ransom...particularly with some of the earliest versions of the Turin story. I echo Aiwendil's sentiments about the general all-round awesomeness of the commentaries.
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05-28-2009, 12:14 AM | #67 |
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There is an online review on Global Comment, written by David King, a member of the Tolkien Society who may be known to some Barrow-Downers from Oxonmoot. As a scholar of Viking and Anglo-Saxon studies, he is knowledgeable on the subject, and his positive review is based on more than "mere" Tolkien fanship.
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06-01-2009, 01:59 PM | #68 |
Newly Deceased
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Back to the Binding (never mind the text, feel the leather)!
I have just opened the super deluxe offering of the 'Legend', which comes at £100 less than 'The Children of Hurin' super deluxe.
Choice of leathers is superior to 'The Children of Hurin'. The clamshell case looks expensive and the book leather feels better than a top quality Gucci handbag. This time they've use proper marbled endpapers (they were fake last time) and the text block has rounded corners to match the binding. The whole thing has the feel of the best of old bindings. Complaints? The gold stamping could have been cleaned better (residual goldleaf at the edges of lettering), and the clamshell case is a bit tight. Too damn nice to read so I'm waiting the paperback release too! |
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