Boromir and his search for Rivendell

[Boromir88]

Boro you work in transportation planning too?~Kuru

I've been out of the fireworks business for a little while and now working for the Road Engineers.

Gondor's ignorance of Rivendell's location doesn't add up.~MoS

Why not? If characters like Aragorn who had grown up in Rivendell and the area, struggled finding it, imagine someone from a far off country, trying to find a hidden location.

Besides Elrond's power, secrecy was Rivendell's only weapon. It wasn't a fortress, it was in more of a mansion where members of Elrond's house and some other guests lived - it was a hidden refuge in a secret valley. I don't know what you expect anyone in Gondor to know about it's location, and certainly from people (Denethor, Faramir, Boromir...etc) who have never been there, and they have been out of contact with for many hundreds of years.

I am fascinated by the ideas about a possible "Elrond's girdle," and Boromir finding the place due to intervention from Eru, I never thought about that...just knew it was a really hard place for the man to find.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I am fascinated by the ideas about a possible "Elrond's girdle," and Boromir finding the place due to intervention from Eru, I never thought about that...just knew it was a really hard place for the man to find.

I've seen some people try to explain the improbability of Boromir's finding Rivendell due to his being picked up by maybe a stray Ranger (who gave him directions) or even the sons of Elrond who led him those last tricky miles. Quite reasonable, especially when you consider how E&E managed to keep Aragorn from Frodo's recovery feast because they had Very Important News to Give Him; but that's also the realm of fan fiction.

[Boromir88]

I've seen some people try to explain the improbability of Boromir's finding Rivendell due to his being picked up by maybe a stray Ranger (who gave him directions) or even the sons of Elrond who led him those last tricky miles. Quite reasonable, especially when you consider how E&E managed to keep Aragorn from Frodo's recovery feast because they had Very Important News to Give Him; but that's also the realm of fan fiction.~Mnemo

That's certainly a possibility too, I would imagine if anyone, it would likely be Elladan and Elrohir. They definitely knew the area well, and before the Fellowship left Rivendell, they scouted ahead to determine some good routes/see if there was any trouble.

Although I am also considering the wording in the Council of Elrond...if I recall correctly, Elrond says something like "Boromir came to us in the early morning hours" or something similar (I don't have a copy of the books available, they have went through so much wear and tear the binding is gone and the pages are probably dissolving and I have been terrible about getting a new one ). But just from the memory saying "Boromir came to us" sounds like he just stumbled upon the place, or arrived alone. Of course that doesn't mean a helpful ranger, or the E&E boys didn't give some better directions as he was aimlessly wandering the woods.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Still think it doesn't add up.

If you look at the map, the Fords of Isen are roughly the same distance from Rivendell as they are from Minas Tirith - and nearer Rivendell than say Belfalas.

Surely there were enough travellers proceeding across Middle Earth to foster communication and some knowledge of people and places. For example, Celeborn knew that the bridges at Osgiliath were cast down and the landings held by the Enemy. Eomer knew about the false rumour that Rohan paid a tribute of horses to Mordor. Drarves travelled regularly between the Blue Mountains and the Lonely Mountain (passing close to Rivendell) and must have spoken to Beornings, Woodmen in Mirkwood and others who in turn would have had some contact with Rohan and in turn Gondor.

But the clinching argument for me is this - if Denethor wanted to advise Boromir on the location of Rivendell, why didn't he just use the Palantir ?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Still think it doesn't add up.
But the clinching argument for me is this - if Denethor wanted to advise Boromir on the location of Rivendell, why didn't he just use the Palantir ?

I had thoughts along a similar line and the best answers I could come up with were.

1. Maybe Denethor didn't start using the Palaintir until after Boromir left. In fact his long abscence, and possibly knowedge of his death (via Faramirs vision and the split horn) may have been what drove Denethor to start using the Palantir in the first place.

2. Rivendell may have been out of the Palantir's range. I seem to recall something in the Esaay of the Palantiri in the UT that said that the distance a palantir could see was related to its size, maybe the anor stone was too small to have that range. A clue for this may be in the fact that the two largest stones (Osgiliath's and Amon Sul's) were placed in positions where they could have been used as relay stones (one in Gondor one in Arnor) for messages coming in from the other stones.

3. Whatever magic Elrond had that made Rivendell so hard to find may also have prevented it's being scryed by a Palantir. If it didn't then sauron himself could and would have immediately known EXACTLY where Rivendell and Lothlorien were.

4. Comments made by Gandalf in his discussion of the Palantiri make me believe that a great will is needed to use the stone for DIRECTED viewing, without it the stone simply shows random images. Maybe Denethor didn't have that kind of will. In this presumption his later seeing of the Black ships becomes a fluke (or mor likey Sauron using his will in his Palantir to twist Denethor by showing him such images as will maximize his despair and convince him to give up.

Those are the best reasons I can come up with.

[Boromir88]

MoS:

For example, Celeborn knew that the bridges at Osgiliath were cast down and the landings held by the Enemy.

Boromir gave his account at the Council, Celeborn states one of the few people he still remains in contact with is Elrond. Communication between Rivendell and Lorien makes sense.

Communication between Gondor and Rivendell and/or Lorien doesn't. First off, Rohan and Gondor have this major rumor that Lorien is run by a witch and should be avoided (even Faramir believes it.) Secondly, Boromir talks about Gondor's "loneliness" and seemingly the only remaining bastion against Sauron, besides their friends in Rohan. Boromir was being pretty arrogant, because of course other people were opposed to Sauron, but the fact that he states Gondor's only friends now are Rohan, to me suggests, Rohan is the only place Gondor would be in contact with.

You have to remember Denethor was prideful and distrusted anyone who did not fight for Gondor, he was in the mindset it is Gondor vs. Mordor, and isolated Gondor from the rest of its allies, including Rohan (see the Appendix: Stewards).

It's already been established that the location of Rivendell is not a common known thing, or else it would not have been a very effective refuge. I mean Gondor (nor the people of Middle-earth) did not have GPS to plot out their route. If Boromir even looked at a map before he left to get a general sense of direction, "a map" (if Rivendell was even on it!) would not be able to show him recognizable landmarks through woods, or show him how to find a hidden location, in a secret valley, in an area that was completely unfamiliar. Boromir was not a ranger, and the resident ranger even had trouble finding the way to Rivendell.

Alfirin

1. Maybe Denethor didn't start using the Palaintir until after Boromir left.

He first used it after his wife died, being depressed and worrying about his "line" as Finduilas died when his boys were still pretty young. However, we aren't told how often he uses it then, he definitely steps up the frequency of use after Boromir leaves, and even more after finding out Boromir is dead.

2. Rivendell may have been out of the Palantir's range.

Possible, that I do not know enough about Denethor's palantir to tell you. I do recall though that Denethor's palantir was oriented towards the East, as certain Palantir's could only look towards certain direction.

3. Whatever magic Elrond had that made Rivendell so hard to find may also have prevented it's being scryed by a Palantir.

This is possible too, but I would just suggest that determining the general location with a palantir is very hard. These weren't clear or crisp "pictures." Images relied on shadows and lighting, so if someone was trying to look into a room, but there were no lights, the person wouldn't be able to see anything. Also, remember that when Pippin uses the Palantir, and Sauron invades in, Sauron believes Pippin is in Orthanc, because he tells Pippin to give a message to Saruman. The problem is, Pippin is outside, and 100s of miles away from Orthanc by this time. Sauron had no idea that Isengard had been destroyed, nor that the stone had left Isengard and this guy uses the palantir a lot.

4. Comments made by Gandalf in his discussion of the Palantiri make me believe that a great will is needed to use the stone for DIRECTED viewing, without it the stone simply shows random images. Maybe Denethor didn't have that kind of will.

This one would be hard to tell. In UT: The palantir, Tolkien does write that eventually the Stewards to have the authority to use the palantiri. Part of being able to use the palantir, is 1st knowing how to, but 2nd is being the rightful owner. Aragorn, was a rightful owner, hence why he is able to best Sauron (who was not one) through the palantir. Denethor, as a steward, also was a rightful owner, also he was priviledged to top secret records about the palantir that only the Stewards, and their children, had access too - and from the UT we are told that while his father Ecthelion ruled, Denethor rummaged through all the records about the palantir. So, Denethor knew how to use it, and was a rightful owner.

However, you still have to have a significant amount of willpower to contend with Sauron, even though Sauron wasn't a rightful owner. Sauron nearly broke Aragorn, and Aragorn had the authority, plus he was much farther (the distance plays a factor as well, in UT, had Aragorn been closer to Sauron - as Denethor was - he probably would have been bested). Afterall, Sauron is a Maia, and for a mortal to challenge his will, well bad things are going to happen.

It is clear that Sauron was controlling the images Denethor was viewing, when he began doing this, I do not know, but I would imagine it wouldn't be long after he realized Denethor was peeking around. He would of course want to do anything to weaken his strongest enemy, and realizing that the Steward is poking around with the Palantir would be a good opportunity. Sauron could not make the palantir lie and show false images, but he could make it misleading and control what Denethor was seeing - he was only showing Denethor the massive amount of forces Sauron had, and the Corsairs a sailing in, leading Denethor to lose all hope.

Once Denethor lost hope, he thought his only chance was to challenge Sauron through the palantir, the "Lord of Minas Tirith vs. the Lord of Barad-dur" (see Appendix: The Stewards), and that is when he lost his mind.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

1. Maybe Denethor didn't start using the Palaintir until after Boromir left. In fact his long abscence, and possibly knowedge of his death (via Faramirs vision and the split horn) may have been what drove Denethor to start using the Palantir in the first place.

Gandalf seemed to believe he had been using it before then.

But his wisdom failed; and I fear that as the peril of his realm grew he looked in the Stone and was deceived: far too often, I guess, since Boromir departed.

'Far too often' suggests he had made use of it before, though he had been a bit more careful before Boromir's departure.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

2. Rivendell may have been out of the Palantir's range. I seem to recall something in the Esaay of the Palantiri in the UT that said that the distance a palantir could see was related to its size, maybe the anor stone was too small to have that range. A clue for this may be in the fact that the two largest stones (Osgiliath's and Amon Sul's) were placed in positions where they could have been used as relay stones (one in Gondor one in Arnor) for messages coming in from the other stones.

I think the quote from UT stated that the images seen in the minor Stones would be small. It seems the larger ones were best suited for long distance communication, but I wouldn't think the distance between Minas Tirith and Rivendell would have been too far for Denethor to survey, though it probably would have been extremely taxing on his strength.
However, in order to look on Rivendell, wouldn't Denethor have to possess already knowledge of its location or appearance? If not, why couldn't Sauron have used the Ithil Stone to find the Shire?

Originally Posted by Alfirin

3. Whatever magic Elrond had that made Rivendell so hard to find may also have prevented it's being scryed by a Palantir. If it didn't then sauron himself could and would have immediately known EXACTLY where Rivendell and Lothlorien were.

That's an interesting idea. The Tale of Years tells us that Rivendell was founded by Elrond in the year 1697 of the Second Age. 3319 was the year of the Downfall of Númenor, and the time at which Elendil and sons arrived in ME, bringing with them the Palantíri. Elrond, I suppose, could have made his refuge 'unplottable' ( to use a Harry Potterism ), but he would not have done so as a conscious defense against the Palantíri, as he likely did not even know of the Stones when he founded Rivendell. If he was aware of them, they were in the hands of the Faithful in Númenor then, so why would he have felt the need to block them?

edit- x'd with Boro