Armies of Middle Earth during WotR

[JeffF.]

I'm convinced by statements in RotK and Unfinished Tales that the full muster of the Rohirrim pertains to almost all the men of military age. In UT Eorl describes his force that he takes south to Cirion's rescue as the entire force available to him except for a few hundred riders that he leaves behind to support those too old or too young to make the ride.

In RotK Theoden is describing his host. He says that he might have led 10000 men to the dismay of Gondor's foes but that it will bel less (6000) because he will "not leave his strongholds all unmanned." This is a decisive statement. He would not have thought about leaving 4000 riders if he had ten thousand infantry (which if they existed would be better suited to defend The Hordburg and Dunharrow.

In UT Cirion and Eorl the lands that are given to the Eorlingas are all but unpeopled. The Rohirrim were a horse culture and by far were the majority. Helm and his men are described as having mixed with the few people who were already in the area (shorter and darker than the Rohirrim) ahd the two thousand infantry described in Two Towers are likely not Riders of the Mark though undoubtedly some were dismounted infantry who lost their horses at the Battles of the Ford of Isen.

A large force of infantry cannot be reconciled with Theoden's description and the anguished decision he must make as he decides how many men to take with him to Gondor.

[Rumil]

Hi JeffF,

what a busy Bank Holiday!

The reference for the 10,000 infantry is from an earlier draft in HoME, so perhaps not to be taken as 100% reliable. In this early version they include men on foot and mounted on ponies (possibly some sort of mounted infantry?) plus volunteers from the Woodmen and even some reconciled Dunlendings. We certainly see foot soldiers at Helm's Deep and the Fords of the Isen.

I've thought that Rohan is really like two countries, one around the foothills and mountains thats more settled (probably some farmers), townsmen of Dunharrow, Edoras, Aldburg etc, similar to Dark Age English. The other of semi-nomadic herdsmen on the plains (Goth-like, given the acknowledged device of Rohirric names changing from earlier to later forms of Germanic).

Eorl was 400 years ago, so a lot had changed, plenty of scope for 'multiplication' of the Rohirrim .

Agree that it may well be less than 10,000, but the infantry might not be sufficiently mobile to concentrate against any major attacks, just to put up a defence at the various strongpoints, and would likely be a part-time militia (seen too many summers, or too few!). We see upto 2,000 foot in the Westfold, could there be similar numbers in the Eastfold and Edoras district for approx 6,000 in total? These could not put up much oppostion to a major attack from Dol Guldur, though with some thousands of cavalry left behind should just about get away with it.

Though it does make Theoden's decision seem a little less heroic.

Perhaps Grima had made some 'defence-cuts' on the sly between the 2 versions

[Boromir88]

Just a couple points of discussion to bring up.

Rumil

Attack on Minas Tirith, I think huuuge numbers, but 80-90% of them comparativley useless orcs and snagas.

I disagree, Karen Fonstad in her Atlas of Middle-Earth does put out a conservative estimate of 45,000. It could have been more than this, because she was primarily basing it off of the 3:1, or 4:1 ratio (Sauron's forces vs. Gondor's and Allies). It was said that the Easterlings thrice outnumbered what the Rohirrim had set out with (6,000). So that places the Easterlings with 18,000.

Now she estimates the force that left Minas Morgul to be 20,000, which is a pretty good estimate because it was the 'largest force' that left the fortress since Isildur's time.

Then the unnumbered "reserves" that Gothmog throws in, is more of a filler number to keep the 3:1 or 4:1 ratio. So on the conservative a total would be about 45,000, the upper end probably 60,000.

It can't be larger than the army at the Black Gate, because that was Sauron's largest army. And I don't think there is much ambiguity with the "10 times and more than 10 times." Tolkien was very careful with his word selection, there was not one of his "600,000 words" that he did not go over and reconsider...and reconsider a third time. 70,000-80,000...has just been the more familiar one with me, anything above 100,000 is verging into PJ territory who took great liberty to inflate the numbers (especially orcs).

Sauron did not have an unlimitted amount of Orcs to keep throwing out there. At Minas Tirith, there were already 18,000 Easterlings, and Gothmog's reserves were all men. So, it would appear that the majority of Sauron's force at Minas Tirith were Men (and the Minas Morgul force would then be mostly - if not all - comprised of Orcs). Now there aren't specifics about the army at the Black Gate, other than being "10 times and more than 10 times." That could very well be mostly comprised of Orcs, but Sauron seemed to rely heavily on Men to make up his armies. At Minas Tirith and against the Dwarves, which was an entirely Easterling force.

I remember one of Kuru's threads a while ago, about Dwarves...hmm I should probably try to find it. But The Silmarillion does say:

Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.~Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Estimating their numbers will be pretty hard, because I had the impression they mostly just ignored the "global" issues, sticking to themselves, except Durin's folk. However, we also know they were an extremely warlike race, so when they actually were spurred to fight, I would imagine every male in the colony would take up arms. This creates some problems with numbers, because despite few ever fighting for either side, when they actually did fight, they could gather everybody.

It would be a shame if Dain did give in to despair at the end, but the way the text is phrased it gives the implication of one who no longer has any expectation or desire of living and Dain doesn't seem like one to just simply be overcome by battle-madness.~Kuru

I agree. The text seems to indicate that not only was Dain a mighty warrior at his great age, but also an extremely competent (and effective) leader for the dwarves.

But Dain Ironfoot was a worthy successor. And now we hear that he fell fighting before Erebor again, even while we fought here. I should call it a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the Gate of Erebor until the darkness fell.~UT: The Quest for Erebor

A "worthy" successor for a dwarf I think is more than simply a dwarf who knows how to wield an axe. I will use Gondor as an example...Tolkien loved front-line leaders who were not hot heads, perfect example is Faramir. He did not look to highly at the "chateaux generals" (of WW1) who led millions of men to slaughter while they sat away from the front lines in their French mansions (Denethor or Sauron), and even though Boromir led from the front-line he was "rash and ever anxious..." two not so noble sounding qualities in a leader. The Dwarves always looked out for their own interests (as really I think most Men and Elves did too!), and I would imagine prefer a leader who can not only fight at the front with his men, but remain composed.

From what little we know of Dain, I always saw him closer to Faramir's quality of leadership. Not only did he lead from the front-line, but every decision was based upon upon the care of his soldiers and people...getting everyone into Erebor and falling at the gates looks more like a Faramir move (as Boromir tells the council it was him Faramir and two others were the last to hold the bridge before they blew it.) and not someone in a battle-frenzy. Some may think Dain's response to Sauron's messenger as "dragging his feet," but I always saw it as more of an attempt to honestly assess the situation they were about to face. Gloin says Dain feared King Brand would yield, and denying Sauron's messenger was simply a strategy to buy Dain (and the dwarves) time to consider their options.

[JeffF.]

I have long been bothered by the low strength of the Men of Dale and the Dwarves of Erebor in fact I revised their estimated strength upwards a couple of times. One of the statements that has been important in affecting these was one by Gandalf in Unfinished Tales, going back over the sources of my notes I found that I made a mistake in this particular citation. Gandalf did not say that Sauron used more than half his strength in attacking Minas Tirith rather he said he used more than half his strength attacking Gondor. This simple change has drastic effect on the estimates of the Easterlings who attack Dale & Erebor and the strength of Dol Guldor who attacks Lorien three times and Thranduil once. These upward revisions of estimates for their enemies also cause an upward revision of the strength of the Men of Dale, Dwarves of Erebor and Elves of Greenwood (though still had to account for the limits of the force sheltering within Erebor). Gimli's statement in FotR that some Dwarves (like Balin) felt they had the strength and numbers to return to Moria and another in UT that Thorin's dwarves were increased by the wandering people of Durin's Folk give weight to increasing the Dwarves estimate. It is likely that Dwarves of other houses besides the Firebeards and Broadbeams also joined the Kingdom Under the Mountain (as the Firebeards and Broadbeams did with the Longbeards in Khazud Dum after the destruction of Nogrod and Belegost attracted by the wealth and vigor of Dain's kingdom. As for Dale the Hobbit states that there were many settlements of men south of Laketown (Esgaroth) and these would have come under the dominion of Dale (the logical borders being River Running and River Redwater).

I revise my estimates: Dwarves: Kingdom Under the Mountain 3000, Iron Hills 1500 (vassals of the Kingdom but separate). Kingdom of Dale 3000 infantry, 1000 cavalry (with half located outside the environs of the City of Dale mostly from Laketown down the River Running). Thranduil's Army 4000 archers and spearmen and Lorien's Army 4500. These odds still account for the initial loss, the retreat of (most) of Dale's Army and Erebor's into the Mountain and the later sortie that defeats the Easterlings once they are removed from Sauron's will.

The Easterlings attacking Erebor/Dale/Iron Hills I estimate at around 15000 infantry and 1500 cavalry. The Orcs and Trolls of Dol Guldor (reinforced by those from Moria) I keep at the upper end of my previous estimate at 10000 with a few hundred trolls (these attacks on Lorien and Thranduil were so decisively beaten/wiped out that they could not have had much of an advantage in numbers. I still take Gandalf's statement that the enemy has few horsemen as canon. Though the forces attacking in the North were not near half of Sauron's initial force as a soldier I think Sauron would recognize that the attacks on Minas Tirith and Gondor were his 'Main Effort' (to use a modern military term) and would have allotted his forces accordingly (and all these initial hosts were aside from the 60-65000 he used to face the Captains of the West at the Black Gate).

[Kuruharan]

How do you reconcile such tiny numbers of dwarves with the statement that they had grown "strong" again? The population of the dwarves may only grow slowly, but it still capable of growth. Durin's Folk had been mighty enough to provide the bulk of the forces that fought a victorious war against the orcs when they didn't have a settled capital. Why the presumption that they wouldn't be able to field a substantial force when they did have a settled capital?

Upon what are you basing the belief that Erebor would not be able to accommodate substantial numbers of refugees as well as substantial forces in the event of a siege? I suspect that if nothing else the physical size of the dwarven city in the mountain was probably greater than Dale, if not substantially larger (I think it was probably substantially larger). Why couldn't the dwarves have accommodated large numbers of Bardings in their hour of need?

Easterling Theorizing:

I think that given the largely unmitigated flatness of the areas of Rhun, which are visible on the map, that many of the Easterlings were horsey lots and their army composition would reflect that. I picture something along the lines of a steppe culture and army.

[Hakon]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Easterling Theorizing:

I think that given the largely unmitigated flatness of the areas of Rhun, which are visible on the map, that many of the Easterlings were horsey lots and their army composition would reflect that. I picture something along the lines of a steppe culture and army.

The way I see it the Easterling army is entirely heavy infantry and light cavalry. I also picture a steppe culture but the army being less steppe like than the actual culture.

Also on a side note I would like to point something out about the numbers. For Mordor instead of it being say 65000 it is more like 65328 troops. I am sure you are all aware of this but I always feel the need to state the obvious.

[JeffF.]

The overall populations around Northwest Middle Earth seemed small (as the author of the Atlas of Middle Earth points out). Every Dwarf hold mentioned except for the Iron Hills is described with words as 'small' or 'few.' The account of the last battle of the War of Dwarves and Orcs shows that the Dwarves suffered immense casualties. Thorin's description of Smaug's decimation of Erebor states that only a few dwarves who were outside the mountain escaped and most were killed. Earlier the Dwarves of the Ered Mithrin had also all been killed or driven away by the dragons who coveted their wealth. These accumulated disasters must have had a drastic effect on the numbers of Durin's Folk. I'd say my estimates are only possible if dwarves of other houses joined the recreated Kingdom Under the Mountain. "Grown strong again" has to be put in the context of these previous losses.

Gandalf's knowledge of the composition of the enemy armies I take to be a result of his mind battle with Sauron (as he describes upon his reunion with Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli. Much like Frodo's vision of the Easterlings as he wore the ring to escape Boromir. Gandalf's description that the Enemy has few horsemen is not based on any immediate reports (the besieging army has only begun to cross at Osgiliath).

I notice that the Atlas of Middle Earth shows only Rohan as being composed of 'plains' and that for most of the clear areas depicted in the maps of LotR she describes as partial woodlands (compared to pure woodlands like Greenwood and Lothlorien). No doubt plains must have existed in the East, the Wainriders (who mainly used the chariot) must have evolved in such a land but for me the bottom line is Gandalf's description. The books should be regarded as canon except when there are contradictory statements and later statements made that correct earlier thoughts or descriptions.

[Gordis]

It is a very interesting thread. I have little new to contribute, but I have some observations/questions...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Sauron did not have an unlimitted amount of Orcs to keep throwing out there. At Minas Tirith, there were already 18,000 Easterlings, and Gothmog's reserves were all men. So, it would appear that the majority of Sauron's force at Minas Tirith were Men (and the Minas Morgul force would then be mostly - if not all - comprised of Orcs).

I don't think the force leaving Minas Morgul were mostly orcs. Certainly not all were orcs: orcs don't ride horses and there was a huge cavalry detachmant:

And out of the gate an army came.
All that host was clad in sable, dark as the night. Against the wan walls and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light.

This black-clad cavalry are unlikely to be Southrons: those were brightly clad, IIRC, with serpent-banners. So - were they Black Numenoreans? Or maybe wraiths? And what has become of this black-clad cavalry later? - I am not sure it was mentioned at the Pelennor.

As for the rest of the army, I don't know, but their description doesn't sound much like Orcs: silent, orderly etc. Of course, maybe they were just well-trained and much intimidated by the WK at the moment.

[JeffF.]

"This black-clad cavalry are unlikely to be Southrons"

RotK states specifically that they were Haradrim.

"Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain. And he looked out, and in the growing light he saw the banner of the king, and that it was far ahead of the battle with few men about it. Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet"

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

"This black-clad cavalry are unlikely to be Southrons"

RotK states specifically that they were Haradrim.

"Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain. And he looked out, and in the growing light he saw the banner of the king, and that it was far ahead of the battle with few men about it. Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet"

I doubt not that there were Haradrim at the Pelennor - yet there is no evidence that the Haradrim cavalry had issued from Minas Morgul.

Instead we learn that the army of Harad had joined the Morgul host on the East bank of the Anduin:

It was night again ere news came. A man rode in haste from the fords, saying that a host had issued from Minas Morgul and was already drawing nigh to Osgiliath; and it had been joined by regiments from the South, Haradrim, cruel and tall. ‘And we have learned ‘ said the messenger, ‘that the Black Captain leads them once again, and the fear of him has passed before him over the River.’

You may note that Frodo saw no Mumakil in Mordor Host, but they were present at the Pelennor. Haradrim are describes as "Southrons in scarlet" and they have scarlet banners with black serpent. Nothing like that was observed among the Minas Morgul host in the Morgul Vale.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And the force Frodo saw ambushed in Ithilien was one of Haradrim, complete with Oliphaunts- but this was north of the Morgul road, so presumably they were bound for the Morannon.

On the other hand, in Tolkien's unpublished Chronology the army from the Morannon comprised Orcs and Easterlings, not Haradrim, and was the force which crossed at Cair Andros and held the North Road to block the Rohirrim (which Theoden bypassed via the Stonewain Valley, and Elfhelm destroyed some days later).

It's worth observing that the Morgul-host took hours to pass, Frodo wasn't watching it most of that time, and it's never mentioned exactly who was in it- save that it was led by "a great cavalry of horsemen." These last couldn't have been Orcs.