Armies of Middle Earth during WotR

[Gordis]

It is a very interesting thread. I have little new to contribute, but I have some observations/questions...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Sauron did not have an unlimitted amount of Orcs to keep throwing out there. At Minas Tirith, there were already 18,000 Easterlings, and Gothmog's reserves were all men. So, it would appear that the majority of Sauron's force at Minas Tirith were Men (and the Minas Morgul force would then be mostly - if not all - comprised of Orcs).

I don't think the force leaving Minas Morgul were mostly orcs. Certainly not all were orcs: orcs don't ride horses and there was a huge cavalry detachmant:

And out of the gate an army came.
All that host was clad in sable, dark as the night. Against the wan walls and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light.

This black-clad cavalry are unlikely to be Southrons: those were brightly clad, IIRC, with serpent-banners. So - were they Black Numenoreans? Or maybe wraiths? And what has become of this black-clad cavalry later? - I am not sure it was mentioned at the Pelennor.

As for the rest of the army, I don't know, but their description doesn't sound much like Orcs: silent, orderly etc. Of course, maybe they were just well-trained and much intimidated by the WK at the moment.

[JeffF.]

"This black-clad cavalry are unlikely to be Southrons"

RotK states specifically that they were Haradrim.

"Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain. And he looked out, and in the growing light he saw the banner of the king, and that it was far ahead of the battle with few men about it. Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet"

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

"This black-clad cavalry are unlikely to be Southrons"

RotK states specifically that they were Haradrim.

"Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain. And he looked out, and in the growing light he saw the banner of the king, and that it was far ahead of the battle with few men about it. Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet"

I doubt not that there were Haradrim at the Pelennor - yet there is no evidence that the Haradrim cavalry had issued from Minas Morgul.

Instead we learn that the army of Harad had joined the Morgul host on the East bank of the Anduin:

It was night again ere news came. A man rode in haste from the fords, saying that a host had issued from Minas Morgul and was already drawing nigh to Osgiliath; and it had been joined by regiments from the South, Haradrim, cruel and tall. ‘And we have learned ‘ said the messenger, ‘that the Black Captain leads them once again, and the fear of him has passed before him over the River.’

You may note that Frodo saw no Mumakil in Mordor Host, but they were present at the Pelennor. Haradrim are describes as "Southrons in scarlet" and they have scarlet banners with black serpent. Nothing like that was observed among the Minas Morgul host in the Morgul Vale.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And the force Frodo saw ambushed in Ithilien was one of Haradrim, complete with Oliphaunts- but this was north of the Morgul road, so presumably they were bound for the Morannon.

On the other hand, in Tolkien's unpublished Chronology the army from the Morannon comprised Orcs and Easterlings, not Haradrim, and was the force which crossed at Cair Andros and held the North Road to block the Rohirrim (which Theoden bypassed via the Stonewain Valley, and Elfhelm destroyed some days later).

It's worth observing that the Morgul-host took hours to pass, Frodo wasn't watching it most of that time, and it's never mentioned exactly who was in it- save that it was led by "a great cavalry of horsemen." These last couldn't have been Orcs.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

And the force Frodo saw ambushed in Ithilien was one of Haradrim, complete with Oliphaunts- but this was north of the Morgul road, so presumably they were bound for the Morannon.

Yes. But it doesn't make much strategic sense - why send the Haradrim to Morannon bypassing Minas Morgul, from where the main attack was to be launched? Perhaps Sauron wanted them in his bigger army?

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

On the other hand, in Tolkien's unpublished Chronology the army from the Morannon comprised Orcs and Easterlings, not Haradrim, and was the force which crossed at Cair Andros and held the North Road to block the Rohirrim (which Theoden bypassed via the Stonewain Valley, and Elfhelm destroyed some days later)..

Exactly, and the troops that came from the Morannon via Cair Andros are also listed in the LOTR text: no Haradrim, only Easterlings:

The new host that we had tidings of has come first, from over the River by way of Andros, it is said. They are strong: battalions of Orcs of the Eye, and countless companies of Men of a new sort that we have not met before. Not tall, but broad and grim, bearded like dwarves, wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem. They hold the northward road; and many have passed on into Anórien.-LOTR

Actually they seem to be the same ones that Gothmog later held in reserve.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It's worth observing that the Morgul-host took hours to pass, Frodo wasn't watching it most of that time, and it's never mentioned exactly who was in it- save that it was led by "a great cavalry of horsemen." These last couldn't have been Orcs.

I have reread the passage: I am not sure that the Morgul-host took that long to pass . Maybe it felt like hours, but in fact Frodo only had time to think of Faramir, of his errand and weep.

They could have been Men of Mordor - maybe some were Black Numenoreans, or half-bloods, maybe others were Haradrim in origin but living and serving in Mordor, not fresh from Harad like the scarlet-clad ones. After all, it is not like all Mordor was populated exclusively by orcs.

Interesting that the infantry of Minas Morgul is said to be armed with swords and spears: I am not sure: do orcs carry spears?

[Boromir88]

Interesting that the infantry of Minas Morgul is said to be armed with swords and spears: I am not sure: do orcs carry spears?~Gwath

According to the Departure of Boromir, it sounds like scimitars were the normal weapon of choice for Orcs, and the four "goblin-soldiers of greater stature" carried short broad bladed swords. However, I would imagine the larger Orcs could wield a spear. The large black-orc, in Moria, that attacked Frodo did.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

According to the Departure of Boromir, it sounds like scimitars were the normal weapon of choice for Orcs, and the four "goblin-soldiers of greater stature" carried short broad bladed swords. However, I would imagine the larger Orcs could wield a spear. The large black-orc, in Moria, that attacked Frodo did.

Thanks, Boromir.
+ the big soldier crc (who was killed by a small tracker orc) also carried "a short broad-headed spear". So, some of the infantry of Minas Morgul could have been orcs.