Orcs creation theory

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Flame of Anor

This may have already been covered, but i was thinking, since Yavanna sung about ents and they were made by Eru, and Manwe sung about eagles and were produced, maybe Morgoth sung about Orcs in the Music of the Ainur, and though it may sound bad Eru created them because as he proclaimed during the music (...)

Tolkien did once contemplate:

'Out of the discords of the Music -- sc. not directly out of either of the Themes, Eru's or Melkor's, but of their dissonance with regard to one another -- evil things appeared in Arda, which did not descend from any direct plan or vision of Melkor: they were not 'his children'; and therefore, since all evil hates, hated him too. The progeniture of things was corrupted. Hence Orcs? Part of the Elf-Man idea gone wrong. Though as for Orcs, the Eldar believed Morgoth had actually 'bred' them by capturing Men (and Elves) early and increasing to the utmost any corrupt tendencies they possessed.'

Myths Transformed Text VII

This was not the only idea Tolkien mused upon concerning Orcs. Whatever notion he was going to land on (and possibly he was going to present conflicting ideas depending on where the ideas came from, or maybe he was going to leave the matter vague), here are a couple examples of what Tolkien himself had already published -- so in my opinion he would have to mind these statements in any case:

'The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days.'

Appendix F

'No, they eat and drink Sam. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them;...'

Frodo, The Tower of Cirith Ungol

Treebeard implies that Orcs came with the Great Darkness (first quote), and earlier he had given a general idea (at least) of when this Great Darkness began:

'It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darknesss that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it.'

Treebeard

'They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did. But then the Great Darkness came, and they passed away over the Sea, or fled into far valleys, and hid themselves,...'

Treebeard

I'm aware of Tolkien's statement in a letter that Treebeard is a character in the story and cannot be expected to know the exact origin of Orcs, however he is stated to have a great memory too, and I think the reader can regard these statements as reliable enough. Treebeard does not, in any case, state what Orcs were made from, but rather that they were made in mockery of Elves, which does not necessarily mean they were made from Elves. This left some room for JRRT to jot down various theories about Orcs with respect to what they might be corruptions of, including beasts, Maiar, Elves, Men, all of which can be found in texts also under the Myths Transformed section in Morgoth's Ring.

A mannish theory can be found in one of Tolkien's notes to the essay on the Druedain published in Unfinished Tales, where (it is stated that) the Eldar said that surely Morgoth bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but yet not the Druedain.

[narfforc]

Originally Posted by Galin

A mannish theory can be found in one of Tolkien's notes to the essay on the Druedain published in Unfinished Tales, where (it is stated that) the Eldar said that surely Morgoth bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but yet not the Druedain.

In Myths Transformed (Morgoth's Ring) Christopher states:-

This then, as it may appear, was my father final view of the question: Orcs were bred from men.

Confused?








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[Boromir88]

I'm aware of Tolkien's statement in a letter that Treebeard is a character in the story and cannot be expected to know the exact origin of Orcs,~Galin

I wonder if we can even expect Tolkien to know the exact origin of his Orcs. He seemed to never settle on an idea.

In The Silmarillion the Elves of Tol Eressea believed Morgoth captured Elves, tortured them, and thus you have the first Orcs. However, the same problems occur as you have with Treebeard. Plus, later on, as narfforc and Galin pointed out Tolkien began moving away from this...

While we know Elves and Dwarves were capable of evil, Tolkien didn't think it was possible to enslave their wills in the way Morgoth and Sauron were able to do with their Orcs. Morgoth and Sauron held their Orcs in 'ant-like' thraldom, the nature of Elves and Dwarves made it impossible for them to ever reach this slave state:

Other originally independent creatures, and Men among them (but neither Elves nor Dwarves) could be reduced to a like condition. But ’puppets’, with no independent life or will, would simply cease to move or do anything at all when the will of their maker was brought to nothing.~Morgoth's Ring: Text X

This would go to support the 'Man' theory, however then we have a problem with the timeline. CT makes note that Tolkien adapted his chronology a bit, to fit the Man theory, because that seemed to be the last and most final theory for the origin of Orcs. However, 'last' and 'final' don't inspire that much assurance, as of course Tolkien could have changed his mind again and found a different origin he thought more comfortable.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by narfforc

In Myths Transformed (Morgoth's Ring) Christopher states:- This then, as it may appear, was my father final view of the question: Orcs were bred from men.

Confused?

Yes he does write that, but CJRT follows that statement with: 'But, as always, it is not quite so simple' and then goes on to refer to two notes written on paper dated 1969, one on the spelling of Orc (Ork), the other which carries a statement that appears to deny 'an essential conception of the essay' -- meaning the note appears to deny an essential conception of the earlier Text X 'Orcs from Men' essay.

Whether or not one thinks these two notes are enough to cast doubt on Text X the note to the Druedain is dated quite late too -- but not precisely dated, as CJRT includes it with his description of The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, about which he writes:

'This is a 'late' narrative -- by which I mean no more, in the absence of any indication of precise date, than that it belongs to the final period of my father's writing on Middle-earth, together with 'Cirion and Eorl', 'The Battles of the Ford of Isen', 'The Druedain,'...'

So, it may be that Author's note 5 to The Druedain is later than even these two 'Orc notes', but we don't know, as the notes themselves are '1969 or later' as CJRT also states. As far as the content of these two notes are concerned, for myself I don't find the one about spelling the word Ork very problematic, as it need not mean Tolkien was here suggesting the idea of Text IX (and Elvish origin 'and probably later also of Men' too), simply because he had spelled the word Ork there as well (though I suppose it's possible).

As far as the other note and the essential conception of Text X that the note seems to deny (as I read the evidence anyway): the note implies Morgoth had great numbers of Orcs before his captivity -- while in Text X the implication is rather that, though breeding had actually begun, when Melkor was made captive Sauron bred large numbers, so that when his master returned:

'... and there the dark places underground were already manned with hosts of the Orcs before Melkor came back at last, as Morgoth the Black Enemy, and sent them forth to bring ruin upon all that was fair.'

The question becomes, was JRRT revising his 'Orcs from Men' theory in Text X by seemingly denying this point? Hard to say, but given the late idea from UT (note 5) I tend to think Orcs from men was still the more likely (at least) notion in play, although it should be noted that:

'Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Druedain must have escaped his Shadow;...'

Part of Note 5, The Druedain, Unfinished Tales

... is what the Eldar answered