Orcs creation theory

[Flame of Anor]

Yes Estelyn Telcontar, it does say:

For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme.

But the "Children of Ilúvatar" are Man and Elves only because they were created only by Eru. The Dwarves were a bad example i admit it, however if we look back at the creation of ents, specifically in The Silmarillion, we will recall that Yavanna sang about them in the Music of Ainur and latter Eru brought them into being. (i cant find the exact quote im sorry)

I am in no way saying that Morgoth created Orcs on his own, i just think that he thought them up, like Yavanna, and then Eru brought them to life, but Morgoth being the arrogant punk he is just thought he had done it himself. And Eru made orcs not to be cruel but for the reason Boromir88 states:

Also to add, even though this doesn't really answer whether Morgoth created, or perverted, his Orcs, it does point out that their acceptance (by Eru) for existing:

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Flame of Anor

I am in no way saying that Morgoth created Orcs on his own, i just think that he thought them up, like Yavanna, and then Eru brought them to life, but Morgoth being the arrogant punk he is just thought he had done it himself. And Eru made orcs not to be cruel but for the reason Boromir88 states:

This is probably the quote you spoke of:

'Yet it was in the Song', said Yavanna. 'For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain.

It seems clear to me the case of the Orcs is entirely different. They were made, not created, by Morgoth in an act of supreme blashphemy that The Silmarillion leaves little doubt was abominable to Ilúvatar.
The Ents were indeed part of the Music as recounted by Yavanna. But she received permission, as did Aulë for a different reason, to bring her own idea into the theme. Melkor received no such grace, and was in fact rebuked by the One for his insubordination. His alteration of the Music had no good intentions to redeem it. An evil deed, though it may do good not intended by the perpetrator, remains evil.

[narfforc]

Since Melkor could not 'create' an independent species, but had immense powers of corruption and distortion of those that came into his power, it is probable that these Orks had a mixed origin. Most of them plainly (and biologically) were corruptions of Elves (and probably later Men).................... The Elves would have classed the creatures called 'trolls (in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings) as Orcs - in character and origin - but they were larger and slower. It would seem they were corruptions of primitive human types. (Morgoth's Ring).

In a letter dated September 1954, tolkien wrote the following:-


I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits' and hence (though here I am of course only using elements old barbarous mythmaking that had no 'aware' metaphysic) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there other sorts of Trolls beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested. Of course.....when you make Trolls speak you are giving them a power, which in our world (probably) connotes the possession of a 'soul'. (Morgoth's Ring).

I don't think we came seperate the Orcs and the Trolls when we discuss The Origins of Species, they were either both created or pre-existing corrupted forms. As Boromir88 says though, Tolkien kept changing his mind. If you take The Early Silmarillion view then 'Melkor made the orcs out of stone with hearts of hatred'. Later in The Earliest Annals of Beleriand 'He devised the (Balrogs and) Orcs'. These are the problems you encounter within HoME, and at the end Tolkien was comfortable enough to have the words of Treebeard published, even then he still kept thinking of the problem.