Two Dark Lords?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

'Success' in what respect? Again: how does one establish true ownership of the Ring without overthrowing its original master? Surely Sauron would have the opportunity to fight his rival to establish dominance. I simply don't see anything to convince me that someone, even of the stature of Gandalf , merely declaring the Ring to be his would cause Sauron to roll over and die.
And really, by claiming the Ring, haven't you actually been conquered by Sauron already, in a sense?

This is an invisible struggle that is exactly like the Ring's exertion of its will over its bearer, but in reverse. Gandalf or Galadriel would have perceived much more of Sauron than even Frodo did when wearing the Ring, and the will of the Ring/Sauron would be plain to them, either to be submitted to or overcome. A successful claimant would overcome the Ring's will and enslave its power to his own. This invisible struggle never took place with Frodo, Isildur, Bilbo, and Gollum, as all of these were easily and perhaps imperceptibly bent to its will.

These spiritual duels are not uncommon: Aragorn v. Sauron via Palantir; Gandalf's words of binding and command to the Balrog; Gandalf's overthrowing of Saruman; Melian's Girdle. To resist and assert oneself in the face of, say, Melian's Girdle, would be to prove one's power greater than hers--or, at least, greater than that which she put into the spell. Similarly, the Ring has a will that exerts power and to claim it one must overcome that power. (Melian, of course, would not be overthrown by someone who breached her protective spell, but the nature of Melian's Girdle is different from that of the Ring in that the Girdle was not a repository for a great portion of Melian's sustenance.)

[Boromir88]

I think Boromir was the victim of deluisons of granduer. Isildur himself, at least, had wisdom in the end.~Inziladun

But this wasn't something just seen in Boromir, the delusions of grand power was the trademark of the Ring. That was how it deceived:

In the “Mirror of Galadriel”, I 381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond’s words at the Council. Galadriel’s rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve.~Letter 246

All the Bearers were tempted with the idea of using the Ring to overthrow Sauron (so where do they get off scolding Boromir! ) The difference is of course, they rejected this path, Boromir never did and I doubt he ever wanted to.

With someone like Boromir's character, this makes him more susceptible to the Ring, than say Hobbits, or even of other men. In a way you could say his personality pre-disposed him to the Ring's temptation. However, the Ring plays the same old trick with everyone, tempt them with delusions of supreme power. It may have been less noticeable in other characters like Sam and Gollum, but the same deceipts were there. Gollum even has visions of using the Ring to exact revenge on everyone of the nasty people who did him wrong and he could be the great lord, feasting on all the fish he wants. Sam has his vision of leading an army against Sauron and restoring the Gorgorth into a garden.

This is the trick of the Ring, Boromir may have been more susceptible, but his visions of granduer are not unique.

Bombadil seems to be an exception, but as noted he's a completely different character. This is simply my opinion, there's no way to 'prove' it, but for what it's worth. Bombadil says he is his own master, and Gandalf suggests in the Council that Bombadil would most likely lose the Ring for he would not care. Bombadil has a laissez faire attitude to all of Middle-earth, the only thing he cares about is what he is in control over. Simply put, the Ring has nothing to work with, Bombadil is his own master and doesn't care about Sauron or what he does. He is present in Middle-earth, but at the same time not completely in it (he's just not all there ).

All the other characters in the story have something at risk, and Sauron threatens to take it, so the Ring uses its tricks to offer them the power to defeat the Dark Lord they want to see destroyed.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

ll the Bearers were tempted with the idea of using the Ring to overthrow Sauron (so where do they get off scolding Boromir! ) The difference is of course, they rejected this path, Boromir never did and I doubt he ever wanted to.

This is the trick of the Ring, Boromir may have been more susceptible, but his visions of granduer are not unique.

I wasn't chiding Boromir for being tempted by the Ring and giving in to the urge. That was more a response to Nogrod, who was wondering if B would have been strong enough to wield it. My point was that if Isildur, as great as he was, did not think himself capable of bending the Ring to his will, I certainly couldn't see Boromir being able to do it.

[Keyan]

Originally Posted by obloquy

This is an invisible struggle that is exactly like the Ring's exertion of its will over its bearer, but in reverse. Gandalf or Galadriel would have perceived much more of Sauron than even Frodo did when wearing the Ring, and the will of the Ring/Sauron would be plain to them, either to be submitted to or overcome. A successful claimant would overcome the Ring's will and enslave its power to his own. This invisible struggle never took place with Frodo, Isildur, Bilbo, and Gollum, as all of these were easily and perhaps imperceptibly bent to its will.

I think I read a quote from one of Tolkien's letters where he states clearly that someone who took the Ring with the power to wield it would in fact need to gather an army and overthrow and defeat Sauron in a physical sense. Sauron has power without being in possession of the Ring, and from what I can tell if someone were to claim it Sauron would NOT be destroyed in the same way he is when the Ring is physically destroyed.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Keyan

I think I read a quote from one of Tolkien's letters where he states clearly that someone who took the Ring with the power to wield it would in fact need to gather an army and overthrow and defeat Sauron in a physical sense. Sauron has power without being in possession of the Ring, and from what I can tell if someone were to claim it Sauron would NOT be destroyed in the same way he is when the Ring is physically destroyed.

If the Ring were claimed, and Sauron unsuccessfully faced the claimant in a one-on-one contest, the result for him would have been the same as its destruction. Letter 246 suggests that probably only Gandalf would have had the strength to keep it from him, however.
A lesser claimant such as Elrond or Galadriel would likely do as you say, using the Ring's powers of command and domination to amass an army great enough to defeat Sauron militarily.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Keyan

I think I read a quote from one of Tolkien's letters where he states clearly that someone who took the Ring with the power to wield it would in fact need to gather an army and overthrow and defeat Sauron in a physical sense. Sauron has power without being in possession of the Ring, and from what I can tell if someone were to claim it Sauron would NOT be destroyed in the same way he is when the Ring is physically destroyed.

This makes sense, since as others have discussed above, simply claiming the Ring is not sufficient. Both Frodo and Gollum did that and it was obviously not enough.

The key would be control the Ring itself through sheer force of will and then to use the power conveyed by it to assemble an army. In contrast to statements above, I think that Aragorn in fact might have done this--this is stated by Legolas:

In that hour I looked on Aragorn and thought how great and terrible a Lord he might have become in the strenth of his will, had he taken the Ring to himself. Not for naught does Mordor fear him.

I don't think that Sauron's merely losing the Ring to somebody else would have changed the equation by itself. That person would have to wrest control of the Ring and then put it to use. Of course, in putting it to use, that person would become corrupted him or herself.

[obloquy]

Inziladun is correct. A successful seizure of ownership would result in Sauron's utter overthrow, as if the Ring had been destroyed. Confrontation is only necessary if the claimant is not powerful enough to sever Sauron's bond with--and thus control over--the Ring.

[Student of War]

Controlling the one ring is just a delusion. It is a one way relationship. The only way to maintain control of it is to keep it without using it. And anyone "bonded" to the ring will be able to do its will in the meantime because they cannot be severed from it even if they are completely destroyed. Those with great substance will take longer but each time the ring is used it comes a little closer to dominating its bearer. So once they become wraiths they also become Sauron. It matters little in the end who wields it and how.

[deagol]

Originally Posted by Student of War

Controlling the one ring is just a delusion. It is a one way relationship. The only way to maintain control of it is to keep it without using it. And anyone "bonded" to the ring will be able to do its will in the meantime because they cannot be severed from it even if they are completely destroyed. Those with great substance will take longer but each time the ring is used it comes a little closer to dominating its bearer. So once they become wraiths they also become Sauron. It matters little in the end who wields it and how.

I like this answer a lot. It could be argued that the entire quest played entirely into Sauron's hands, delivering the Ring right to his doorstep, though he knew it not. It is only the use of the Ring that reveals its whereabouts and the idea that it confers power -- even so mundane a power as invisibility (which, let us not forget, also reveals the bearer in another sense) is ultimately an illusion. I've always felt that the Ring had a malicious will of its own, or was in any case, designed to always seek its true master. It makes for a wonderful epic, but a cynic might suggest that Frodo's ability to overcome the seemingly insurmountable obstacles in his path was mightily convenient, both in terms of a ripping good yarn and the will of the Dark Lord. It seems to me that all the while the Ring (the influence of Sauron) was going exactly where it wanted to go, and all the designs of the Council and heroics of the Fellowship (the best laid plans, you might say) could all be seen as mere extensions of the Ring's (Sauron's) will to click its heels three times and recite "There's no place like home." There was no worry that the silly little hobbit would actually cast the Ring away. As far as Sauron knew, no one ever had. But for the interference of the redoubtable Smeagol -- another of those pesky, unpredictable creatures, things worked out as wonderfully as Sauron might have hoped.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by deagol

It could be argued that the entire quest played entirely into Sauron's hands, delivering the Ring right to his doorstep, though he knew it.

And ultimately, he proved Théoden's (or was it Eómer's?) remark, "Oft evil will doth evil mar." Because Sauron was himself enamored of power, he could conceive of no greater desire, no higher purpose. And like many, he projected his own motives and intents onto others. Sometimes, I wonder if in making the Ring, Sauron went farther than even he knew, and put too much of his own will into it, along with his power. If so, that would explain much about the Ring's danger to even powerful beings with good intent. In letter 246, Tolkien makes it plain that only Gandalf really had a chance of claiming the Ring and overthrowing Sauron, but even he would be overthrown by the Ring:

If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been the same for Sauron as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron....

No mortal, even Aragorn, had the power or the right to wield the Ring (according to the letter), and even the powerful Elves, like Galadriel, were deluded into thinking they could wield it (again per the same letter). That the Ring feeds delusions to lesser beings and would ultimately corrupt even those powerful enough to claim it indicates a high level of will residing in the Ring itself, I think. It would continue even with Sauron destroyed. Was this the only way of making the Ring effective, or did Sauron make a mistake and go too far, in his hubris? I wonder....i

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by deagol

It makes for a wonderful epic, but a cynic might suggest that Frodo's ability to overcome the seemingly insurmountable obstacles in his path was mightily convenient, both in terms of a ripping good yarn and the will of the Dark Lord.

Convenient? It took every ounce of Frodo's will and Hobbit-born humility to make it to Mt. Doom. And at the end, he failed, as would anyone with less strength than Sauron's. If he seems to have received more 'luck' in his quest than he should have, the same could be said for Beren, or Eärendil couldn't it?

Originally Posted by deagol

It seems to me that all the while the Ring (the influence of Sauron) was going exactly where it wanted to go, and all the designs of the Council and heroics of the Fellowship (the best laid plans, you might say) could all be seen as mere extensions of the Ring's (Sauron's) will to click its heels three times and recite "There's no place like home."

The Ring, containing Sauron's power and spirit, indeed wanted to get back to its master in Mordor. But Mt. Doom was not what it had in mind. Depsite the fact that its power increased so exponentially as it neared the forge of its making that any bearer would not have been willing at that point to harm it, the very idea of it being so close to total destruction alarmed Sauron.

Then [Sauron's] wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril, and the thread upon which his doom now hung.

ROTK Mt Doom

Originally Posted by deagol

There was no worry that the silly little hobbit would actually cast the Ring away. As far as Sauron knew, no one ever had. But for the interference of the redoubtable Smeagol -- another of those pesky, unpredictable creatures, things worked out as wonderfully as Sauron might have hoped.

Are you suggesting that the Ring knew what Frodo was trying to do? I really don't see that. Surely if it had known, it would have 'left' Frodo at some opportune moment, as it had Isildur and Gollum long before.

x/d with Ibrin

[obloquy]

great posts, SoW and deagol.