Two Dark Lords?

[deagol]

Originally Posted by Student of War

Controlling the one ring is just a delusion. It is a one way relationship. The only way to maintain control of it is to keep it without using it. And anyone "bonded" to the ring will be able to do its will in the meantime because they cannot be severed from it even if they are completely destroyed. Those with great substance will take longer but each time the ring is used it comes a little closer to dominating its bearer. So once they become wraiths they also become Sauron. It matters little in the end who wields it and how.

I like this answer a lot. It could be argued that the entire quest played entirely into Sauron's hands, delivering the Ring right to his doorstep, though he knew it not. It is only the use of the Ring that reveals its whereabouts and the idea that it confers power -- even so mundane a power as invisibility (which, let us not forget, also reveals the bearer in another sense) is ultimately an illusion. I've always felt that the Ring had a malicious will of its own, or was in any case, designed to always seek its true master. It makes for a wonderful epic, but a cynic might suggest that Frodo's ability to overcome the seemingly insurmountable obstacles in his path was mightily convenient, both in terms of a ripping good yarn and the will of the Dark Lord. It seems to me that all the while the Ring (the influence of Sauron) was going exactly where it wanted to go, and all the designs of the Council and heroics of the Fellowship (the best laid plans, you might say) could all be seen as mere extensions of the Ring's (Sauron's) will to click its heels three times and recite "There's no place like home." There was no worry that the silly little hobbit would actually cast the Ring away. As far as Sauron knew, no one ever had. But for the interference of the redoubtable Smeagol -- another of those pesky, unpredictable creatures, things worked out as wonderfully as Sauron might have hoped.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by deagol

It could be argued that the entire quest played entirely into Sauron's hands, delivering the Ring right to his doorstep, though he knew it.

And ultimately, he proved Théoden's (or was it Eómer's?) remark, "Oft evil will doth evil mar." Because Sauron was himself enamored of power, he could conceive of no greater desire, no higher purpose. And like many, he projected his own motives and intents onto others. Sometimes, I wonder if in making the Ring, Sauron went farther than even he knew, and put too much of his own will into it, along with his power. If so, that would explain much about the Ring's danger to even powerful beings with good intent. In letter 246, Tolkien makes it plain that only Gandalf really had a chance of claiming the Ring and overthrowing Sauron, but even he would be overthrown by the Ring:

If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been the same for Sauron as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron....

No mortal, even Aragorn, had the power or the right to wield the Ring (according to the letter), and even the powerful Elves, like Galadriel, were deluded into thinking they could wield it (again per the same letter). That the Ring feeds delusions to lesser beings and would ultimately corrupt even those powerful enough to claim it indicates a high level of will residing in the Ring itself, I think. It would continue even with Sauron destroyed. Was this the only way of making the Ring effective, or did Sauron make a mistake and go too far, in his hubris? I wonder....i

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by deagol

It makes for a wonderful epic, but a cynic might suggest that Frodo's ability to overcome the seemingly insurmountable obstacles in his path was mightily convenient, both in terms of a ripping good yarn and the will of the Dark Lord.

Convenient? It took every ounce of Frodo's will and Hobbit-born humility to make it to Mt. Doom. And at the end, he failed, as would anyone with less strength than Sauron's. If he seems to have received more 'luck' in his quest than he should have, the same could be said for Beren, or Eärendil couldn't it?

Originally Posted by deagol

It seems to me that all the while the Ring (the influence of Sauron) was going exactly where it wanted to go, and all the designs of the Council and heroics of the Fellowship (the best laid plans, you might say) could all be seen as mere extensions of the Ring's (Sauron's) will to click its heels three times and recite "There's no place like home."

The Ring, containing Sauron's power and spirit, indeed wanted to get back to its master in Mordor. But Mt. Doom was not what it had in mind. Depsite the fact that its power increased so exponentially as it neared the forge of its making that any bearer would not have been willing at that point to harm it, the very idea of it being so close to total destruction alarmed Sauron.

Then [Sauron's] wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril, and the thread upon which his doom now hung.

ROTK Mt Doom

Originally Posted by deagol

There was no worry that the silly little hobbit would actually cast the Ring away. As far as Sauron knew, no one ever had. But for the interference of the redoubtable Smeagol -- another of those pesky, unpredictable creatures, things worked out as wonderfully as Sauron might have hoped.

Are you suggesting that the Ring knew what Frodo was trying to do? I really don't see that. Surely if it had known, it would have 'left' Frodo at some opportune moment, as it had Isildur and Gollum long before.

x/d with Ibrin

[Lastande Took]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Are you suggesting that the Ring knew what Frodo was trying to do? I really don't see that. Surely if it had known, it would have 'left' Frodo at some opportune moment, as it had Isildur and Gollum long before.

I see your point, but it seems to me that the Ring didn't 'know' Frodo's full purpose. Correct me if I'm wrong in the following surmises.

Frodo was somewhat tied to the Ring, but he fought it every step of the way. That kept the Ring from really getting inside his head, so to speak. It could tell Frodo was going to Mordor, but not WHERE in Modor. That kept it from leaving the Ringbearer.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Lastande Took

Frodo was somewhat tied to the Ring, but he fought it every step of the way. That kept the Ring from really getting inside his head, so to speak. It could tell Frodo was going to Mordor, but not WHERE in Modor. That kept it from leaving the Ringbearer.

One might speculate that the Ring, "aware" of Frodo's resistance was also "aware" that Frodo was no match for it, so to speak. Sauron almost surely would have disdained Frodo as a real threat, and thus so would the Ring, the repository of his might and malice. He would have known that halflings were tough nuts to break -- having had Gollum in his dungeons -- but ultimately, he, as a Maia, would prevail. So long as Frodo kept moving in the right direction, toward Mordor, there was no need for the Ring to abandon him. It could keep trying to undermine his will so as to reveal himself to Sauron and his minions, a situation that would be made easier once Frodo was within Mordor itself. We see evidence of this in the way Frodo's condition deteriorated rapidly, after they passed into Mordor.

But the Ring was still Sauron's, and if it had "thoughts," they would have been Sauron's. And as he could not conceive of anyone wanting to destroy it, the Ring would not have "thought" it possible until it was about to happen. At which point, it put everything it had into breaking Frodo's will so that he would make the mistake of claiming it, thus revealing himself to Sauron. It seems clear to me that the Ring needed a bearer to act as a sort of "antenna" through which its presence could be broadcast to Sauron, and that bearer needed to claim it to activate that potential. If mere proximity were enough, Sauron should have known the Ring was in Mordor once Frodo carried it past the Watchers. But he didn't.

Whoa, it feels like that train of thought went wandering off the track...

[Lastande Took]

It could have been a situation similar to something brought up a bit earlier in this thread - Sauron anticipated Frodo's activities and let him come through Mordor, but underestimated the Hobbit and expected him to claim the Ring before reaching the Cracks of Doom. Then Sauron would know exactly where the Ringbearer was, send a Nazgul, and get the ring back. He knew Frodo's will wasn't strong enough to master the Ring. Frodo's resitance and Gollum's unexpected role messed up Sauron's plans.