Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

[Pitchwife]

Sorry to double-post, but I missed alatar's last before posting mine.

Originally Posted by alatar

That's what Tom thinks and says when Goldberry's not in the room.

Actually, it's Goldberry herself who says that about him:

Frodo looked at her questioningly. 'He is, as you have seen him', she said in answer to his look. 'He is the master of wood, water, and hill.'

And a little further down the page:

'Tom Bombadil is the Master. No one has ever caught old Tom [...] He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is master.'

(Charming passage, by the way. Doesn't she sound like a woman who is really proud of the man she loves?)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Actually, it's Goldberry herself who says that about him:

(Charming passage, by the way. Doesn't she sound like a woman who is really proud of the man she loves?)

It's not what she says when there is company around that interests me, it's what she says when no one is there.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

alatar, alatar, alatar...are you being tongue in cheek regarding this topic? Be careful, or I may start quoting The Silmarillion regarding the balrogs flying "with winged speed".

Wow! I'd hate to stare up at clouds next to you...

alatar - "That one...there!...looks like some guy painting the side of a castle with pompoms while a zebra in a hard hat in a jeep looks on while working at a laptop..."

Morthoron - "It's a cumulus cloud already!"



That all said, I'm just showing that even Tolkien didn't know that he was including Eru into the story, but he did, deny it as he might.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

Wow! I'd hate to stare up at clouds next to you...

alatar - "That one...there!...looks like some guy painting the side of a castle with pompoms while a zebra in a hard hat in a jeep looks on while working at a laptop..."

Morthoron - "It's a cumulus cloud already!"



That all said, I'm just showing that even Tolkien didn't know that he was including Eru into the story, but he did, deny it as he might.

Hehe...it was a cumulonimbus, to be more precise.

To be honest, I don't see Eru in Bombadil, particulalry since Eru went out of his way to separate deities from mortal affairs in the Numenorean affair (that whole reshaping the earth and cataclysmic flood thing). The entire premise of LotR revolves around fate and providence -- indirect action on the part of the supreme being -- rather than direct and personal intervention. Even the Istari are reduced from their Maiaric states of perfection and ordered to kindle men's hearts, as opposed to matching Sauron power against power. That being the case, it makes little sense to have Illuvatar cavorting about in yellow boots with a nymphette tart waxing poetic on daisies and dogwood.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hehe...it was a cumulonimbus, to be more precise.

See what I mean?

To be honest, I don't see Eru in Bombadil, particulalry since Eru went out of his way to separate deities from mortal affairs in the Numenorean affair (that whole reshaping the earth and cataclysmic flood thing). The entire premise of LotR revolves around fate and providence -- indirect action on the part of the supreme being -- rather than direct and personal intervention. Even the Istari are reduced from their Maiaric states of perfection and ordered to kindle men's hearts, as opposed to matching Sauron power against power.

How, in any way, if Eru is Tom, does Tom use his power to effect direct and personal intervention outside of his terrarium? He helps the Hobbits with Old Man Willow, gives them some advice (nothing Maggot wouldn't have said), and gets them out of the Barrow. Frodo might have gotten out by himself, and maybe, once the door was opened, got one or more of the others out as well. Who knows? But Tom wasn't doing anything that an elf or maia couldn't have done (except keep himself dry in a rainstorm...).

That being the case, it makes little sense to have Illuvatar cavorting about in yellow boots with a nymphette tart waxing poetic on daisies and dogwood.

Your point is? What better way to spend the day? And he wasn't cavorting, because he is both creatures, in my view.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And we Downers are particularly enamoured of ingenious theories.

Though maybe not particularly enamoured with ingenious Downers (in theory)...

Now, I was initially tempted to propose the Dustbroom Motivation. That is, when I read the very first post here, I saw a post desperately in need of a new broom to remove the code from previous forum software. Why, I couldn't even find the post topic amidst all that code! I thought maybe al was nudging our Moddess a bit, to tidy up her fora.

Why people think the worst of me, I'll never know. Sometime's a post is just a post.

Now, al finds this evidence of two halves. I find it evidence of . . . The Author In His Work.

Excellent theory; very insightful. And then for Tolkien to go on later and deny that Tom is divine (well, of course it's not...not in that way). Definitely would be a fun prank.

Even Peter Jackson did cameos.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

How, in any way, if Eru is Tom, does Tom use his power to effect direct and personal intervention outside of his terrarium? He helps the Hobbits with Old Man Willow, gives them some advice (nothing Maggot wouldn't have said), and gets them out of the Barrow. Frodo might have gotten out by himself, and maybe, once the door was opened, got one or more of the others out as well. Who knows? But Tom wasn't doing anything that an elf or maia couldn't have done (except keep himself dry in a rainstorm...)..

But he does directly interfere by saving the hobbits: from Old Man Willow and once again with the Barrow Wights. He also sends out Fatty Lumpkin (Tolkien's version of Catholicism's Holy Spirit, obviously) to aid the hobbits' hapless horses (wayward souls in need of baptism, seemingly). That is hardly remaining aloof and netherworldly.

Originally Posted by alatar

Your point is? What better way to spend the day? And he wasn't cavorting, because he is both creatures, in my view.

Oh, I think it's clear he was cavorting. His love affair with Goldberry was obvious, and to consider it as homoerotic (or hermaphroditic) is indeed disturbing.

Originally Posted by alatar

Excellent theory; very insightful. And then for Tolkien to go on later and deny that Tom is divine (well, of course it's not...not in that way). Definitely would be a fun prank.

Even Peter Jackson did cameos.

So did Alfred Hitchcock (Jackson's a copycat). I like that theory by Beth, particularly since it jibes with my idea that Bombadil is Tolkien's literary joke.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But he does directly interfere by saving the hobbits: from Old Man Willow and once again with the Barrow Wights. He also sends out Fatty Lumpkin (Tolkien's version of Catholicism's Holy Spirit, obviously) to aid the hobbits' hapless horses (wayward souls in need of baptism, seemingly). That is hardly remaining aloof and netherworldly.

I understand what you mean, but what I mean is that Eru via Tom was obviously restrained in what he did - he veiled his full power. In the Barrow, he even asked Frodo help him get the others out. He does nothing that one or more inhabitants of Arda couldn't do, if not a whole lot less.

Oh, I think it's clear he was cavorting. His love affair with Goldberry was obvious, and to consider it as homoerotic (or hermaphroditic) is indeed disturbing.

I think that the prefix you are looking for is "auto."

Maybe he's just demonstrating what real perfect love would be like. If he is Eru, then there's nothing icky about the whole thing.

So did Alfred Hitchcock

Who? I thought that the originals were made by Ralph Bakshi.

(Jackson's a copycat)

Not sure *what* he was copying...

I like that theory by Beth, particularly since it jibes with my idea that Bombadil is Tolkien's literary joke.

Much agreed.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by alatar

Even Peter Jackson did cameos.

I really, really, REALLY hope Eru is on a higher plane than Peter Jackson...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I really, really, REALLY hope Eru is on a higher plane than Peter Jackson...

You wouldn't know that by reading through The Movies here.

Really, in the end it must be down to conjecture and personal interpretation, or the question would likely have been resolved to the satisfaction of most long ago.
Personally, I don't care much for 'enigmas', even in books. I like to be able to categorize things and make them fit in the world they inhabit. I know it can't always be done, but that doesn't stop me trying.

[Morsul the Dark]

He's an ent

Old Man Willow is his old body...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

You wouldn't know that by reading through The Movies here.

You obviously haven't read through the Sequence-by-Sequence threads.

Really, in the end it must be down to conjecture and personal interpretation, or the question would likely have been resolved to the satisfaction of most long ago.

Where's the fun in the known?

Personally, I don't care much for 'enigmas', even in books. I like to be able to categorize things and make them fit in the world they inhabit. I know it can't always be done, but that doesn't stop me trying.

The world must be a scary place for you.

But that said, in order to boost my own theory, I must lay waste to the others.

Tom cannot be an Ent, as his speech is much faster than that of any Ent, even Quickbeam. Goldberry is not an Entwife, as she's more into water sports than gardening (though if Tom has the last surviving Entwife around, I can see why he's hidden himself from the others).

Tom is jolly, silly and wears a hat, and these aren't Ent traits either. So Tom is not an Ent. Next...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Though maybe not particularly enamoured with ingenious Downers (in theory)...

With some of us it is possible that enarmoured might be preferable.

Originally Posted by alatar

Why people think the worst of me, I'll never know. Sometime's a post is just a post.

Worst? Here I was thinking it was a valuable form of community service!

Originally Posted by alatar

And then for Tolkien to go on later and deny that Tom is divine (well, of course it's not...not in that way). Definitely would be a fun prank.

As we all know, Tom is divine.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

it jibes with my idea that Bombadil is Tolkien's literary joke

Humour is the best antidote to horror.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

He's an ent that aint, or rather, a pent-up ent that lent out its cerements then went and spent time in a tent as an unfashionable, dissident gent. That's what he meant.

Venting or lenting, this is a bent rent.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I know it can't always be done, but that doesn't stop me trying

The best ones are those that allow us to keep trying.

Originally Posted by Ibrin

I really, really, REALLY hope Eru is on a higher plane than Peter Jackson...

The author of his works rather than in his works.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Again Tom Bombadil is Old Man Willow's Ent Spirit one day Old Man Bombadil(for he was an ent was walking around and saw Goldberry now unlike other ents who sometimes slow down and become treeish he fell in love and became super hasty and happy so hasty that in fact the spirit was ripped from the ent body which became bitter and angry and tom went and "put on his 'A' game" for goldberry

that is also why he can control tghe forest he is a treeherder

this is based on the ent creation theory yvanna put spirits into trees