Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

Wow! I'd hate to stare up at clouds next to you...

alatar - "That one...there!...looks like some guy painting the side of a castle with pompoms while a zebra in a hard hat in a jeep looks on while working at a laptop..."

Morthoron - "It's a cumulus cloud already!"



That all said, I'm just showing that even Tolkien didn't know that he was including Eru into the story, but he did, deny it as he might.

Hehe...it was a cumulonimbus, to be more precise.

To be honest, I don't see Eru in Bombadil, particulalry since Eru went out of his way to separate deities from mortal affairs in the Numenorean affair (that whole reshaping the earth and cataclysmic flood thing). The entire premise of LotR revolves around fate and providence -- indirect action on the part of the supreme being -- rather than direct and personal intervention. Even the Istari are reduced from their Maiaric states of perfection and ordered to kindle men's hearts, as opposed to matching Sauron power against power. That being the case, it makes little sense to have Illuvatar cavorting about in yellow boots with a nymphette tart waxing poetic on daisies and dogwood.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hehe...it was a cumulonimbus, to be more precise.

See what I mean?

To be honest, I don't see Eru in Bombadil, particulalry since Eru went out of his way to separate deities from mortal affairs in the Numenorean affair (that whole reshaping the earth and cataclysmic flood thing). The entire premise of LotR revolves around fate and providence -- indirect action on the part of the supreme being -- rather than direct and personal intervention. Even the Istari are reduced from their Maiaric states of perfection and ordered to kindle men's hearts, as opposed to matching Sauron power against power.

How, in any way, if Eru is Tom, does Tom use his power to effect direct and personal intervention outside of his terrarium? He helps the Hobbits with Old Man Willow, gives them some advice (nothing Maggot wouldn't have said), and gets them out of the Barrow. Frodo might have gotten out by himself, and maybe, once the door was opened, got one or more of the others out as well. Who knows? But Tom wasn't doing anything that an elf or maia couldn't have done (except keep himself dry in a rainstorm...).

That being the case, it makes little sense to have Illuvatar cavorting about in yellow boots with a nymphette tart waxing poetic on daisies and dogwood.

Your point is? What better way to spend the day? And he wasn't cavorting, because he is both creatures, in my view.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And we Downers are particularly enamoured of ingenious theories.

Though maybe not particularly enamoured with ingenious Downers (in theory)...

Now, I was initially tempted to propose the Dustbroom Motivation. That is, when I read the very first post here, I saw a post desperately in need of a new broom to remove the code from previous forum software. Why, I couldn't even find the post topic amidst all that code! I thought maybe al was nudging our Moddess a bit, to tidy up her fora.

Why people think the worst of me, I'll never know. Sometime's a post is just a post.

Now, al finds this evidence of two halves. I find it evidence of . . . The Author In His Work.

Excellent theory; very insightful. And then for Tolkien to go on later and deny that Tom is divine (well, of course it's not...not in that way). Definitely would be a fun prank.

Even Peter Jackson did cameos.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

How, in any way, if Eru is Tom, does Tom use his power to effect direct and personal intervention outside of his terrarium? He helps the Hobbits with Old Man Willow, gives them some advice (nothing Maggot wouldn't have said), and gets them out of the Barrow. Frodo might have gotten out by himself, and maybe, once the door was opened, got one or more of the others out as well. Who knows? But Tom wasn't doing anything that an elf or maia couldn't have done (except keep himself dry in a rainstorm...)..

But he does directly interfere by saving the hobbits: from Old Man Willow and once again with the Barrow Wights. He also sends out Fatty Lumpkin (Tolkien's version of Catholicism's Holy Spirit, obviously) to aid the hobbits' hapless horses (wayward souls in need of baptism, seemingly). That is hardly remaining aloof and netherworldly.

Originally Posted by alatar

Your point is? What better way to spend the day? And he wasn't cavorting, because he is both creatures, in my view.

Oh, I think it's clear he was cavorting. His love affair with Goldberry was obvious, and to consider it as homoerotic (or hermaphroditic) is indeed disturbing.

Originally Posted by alatar

Excellent theory; very insightful. And then for Tolkien to go on later and deny that Tom is divine (well, of course it's not...not in that way). Definitely would be a fun prank.

Even Peter Jackson did cameos.

So did Alfred Hitchcock (Jackson's a copycat). I like that theory by Beth, particularly since it jibes with my idea that Bombadil is Tolkien's literary joke.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But he does directly interfere by saving the hobbits: from Old Man Willow and once again with the Barrow Wights. He also sends out Fatty Lumpkin (Tolkien's version of Catholicism's Holy Spirit, obviously) to aid the hobbits' hapless horses (wayward souls in need of baptism, seemingly). That is hardly remaining aloof and netherworldly.

I understand what you mean, but what I mean is that Eru via Tom was obviously restrained in what he did - he veiled his full power. In the Barrow, he even asked Frodo help him get the others out. He does nothing that one or more inhabitants of Arda couldn't do, if not a whole lot less.

Oh, I think it's clear he was cavorting. His love affair with Goldberry was obvious, and to consider it as homoerotic (or hermaphroditic) is indeed disturbing.

I think that the prefix you are looking for is "auto."

Maybe he's just demonstrating what real perfect love would be like. If he is Eru, then there's nothing icky about the whole thing.

So did Alfred Hitchcock

Who? I thought that the originals were made by Ralph Bakshi.

(Jackson's a copycat)

Not sure *what* he was copying...

I like that theory by Beth, particularly since it jibes with my idea that Bombadil is Tolkien's literary joke.

Much agreed.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by alatar

Even Peter Jackson did cameos.

I really, really, REALLY hope Eru is on a higher plane than Peter Jackson...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I really, really, REALLY hope Eru is on a higher plane than Peter Jackson...

You wouldn't know that by reading through The Movies here.

Really, in the end it must be down to conjecture and personal interpretation, or the question would likely have been resolved to the satisfaction of most long ago.
Personally, I don't care much for 'enigmas', even in books. I like to be able to categorize things and make them fit in the world they inhabit. I know it can't always be done, but that doesn't stop me trying.

[Morsul the Dark]

He's an ent

Old Man Willow is his old body...

[Hakon]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

He's an ent

Old Man Willow is his old body...

Care to elaborate?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Hakon

Care to elaborate?

He's an ent that aint, or rather, a pent-up ent that lent out its cerements then went and spent time in a tent as an unfashionable, dissident gent. That's what he meant.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

You wouldn't know that by reading through The Movies here.

You obviously haven't read through the Sequence-by-Sequence threads.

Really, in the end it must be down to conjecture and personal interpretation, or the question would likely have been resolved to the satisfaction of most long ago.

Where's the fun in the known?

Personally, I don't care much for 'enigmas', even in books. I like to be able to categorize things and make them fit in the world they inhabit. I know it can't always be done, but that doesn't stop me trying.

The world must be a scary place for you.

But that said, in order to boost my own theory, I must lay waste to the others.

Tom cannot be an Ent, as his speech is much faster than that of any Ent, even Quickbeam. Goldberry is not an Entwife, as she's more into water sports than gardening (though if Tom has the last surviving Entwife around, I can see why he's hidden himself from the others).

Tom is jolly, silly and wears a hat, and these aren't Ent traits either. So Tom is not an Ent. Next...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alatar

You obviously haven't read through the Sequence-by-Sequence threads.

No, I haven't. Sounds worthwhile, though.

Originally Posted by alatar

Where's the fun in the known?.

Who said it was fun?

Originally Posted by alatar

The world must be a scary place for you.

Not at all. Attempting to make sense of the nonsensical is a constant exercise in enlightenment.
To clarify, I'm not saying this topic, or any other for that matter, is an exercise in futility in trying to make a case one way or the other. Personally, I lean toward the 'Tom is Eru' view because it seems to make the most 'in-world' sense to me, though that certainly is an ever evolving opinion.

[Morsul the Dark]

here's a unique theory

http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.html

also on another site;

Tom Bombadil is from Wonderland.
He just plain doesn't fit in Middle-earth; he's much more "fairy-tale" than anything else that exists, with magical powers and implied incredible age despite being apparently human. His bit of the story is a cheerful diversion from the main plot, and almost seems to belong to another tale altogether.
Alternatively, he's from Oz.
Or, he is The One, aka Eru aka Ilúvatar. The Ring has no affect on him whatsoever, and in fact, he makes the Ring disappear briefly! When Frodo puts on the Ring, it is said he is putting one foot in the Wraith world and if he wears it too long, risks becoming a wraith. But the "wraith world" is not necessarily an evil place, for, because of the Ring, Frodo is able to see Glorfindel's "other side" the side that exists in the "wraith" or "spirit" world when Glorfindel goes all badass at the Ford of Bruinen. Tom does not disappear when he puts on the Ring, because the Ring has nowhere to pull him to, he already exists totally on "the other side" as the One. In a way, by making the Ring disappear, Tom is pulling the Ring all the way over to "the other side" with himself. Gandalf remarks at the Council of Elrond to the affect that it is notsomuch that Tom has power over the Ring as that the Ring has no power over him, which fits in with Tom as the One, since a creation cannot be higher than the Creator, but the One being a Creator that doesn't muck around with the free will of his creations (but doesn't mind extending a helping hand every now and again). Even Tom's habit of incessant singing fits this theory.
The whole idea was Jossed by Tolkien in 1954, as he has stated in his letters that The One has no incarnation in Middle-earth. This naturally depends on how heavily you accept the Word Of God.
Or, he is Aulë the Smith. Aulë is unique among the Valar in being fonder of life in Middle-earth than in Heaven, as the god of created objects he would naturally have power over the Ring, and he is romantically involved with an earth-mother goddess who is described in similar terms to Goldberry. Only he has the means, motive and opportunity.
A longish essay (on painful background, unfortunately) on this premise is here.
Oromë was like that too, and I could more easily imagine him as Bombadil than Aulë, whose fascination with created and non-living things just doesn't fit with Tom's close-to-nature lifestyle. Also, his nature as the "Eldest" being on Middle-earth would support this, as, if this troper remembers correctly, Oromë was the first of the Valar to set foot on Middle-earth and certainly the only one to remain there for any length of time.
Or he's one of the Maiar, since Gandalf seems to view him on equal terms, not as a servant would his master.
Tom Bombadil is Santa Claus, and Sauron is the Grinch. Tom, who of course is really the spirit of Middle-earth incarnate, switched rings on Frodo, claiming the Ring for himself. At the proper moment, he used the Ring to throw down Sauron, reducing him to powerlessness. Over the long centuries that followed, the Ring darkened his heart until he became Santa Claus, lord of greed, bringer of strife. It's all explained here.
Or maybe he was just hanging around Middle-earth during that hundred-year-or-so period when he was kept out of Narnia by the White Witch.
Tom Bombadil is the Witch-king of Angmar. Explained here.
As strange as that theory is, it does look like it has textual backup.
Tom Bombadil is Thomas Covenant. He's just enjoying a holiday after his fairly harrowing adventures in a foreign land. What, the name wasn't a hint?
Tom Bombadil is the Green Man from folklore, the manifestation of the British/Shire countryside. At least metaphorically.
That's the what Word Of God say he really but Tolkien just put him the story to mess with readers' heads.
Tom Bombadil represents the reader. You are Tom Bombadil. He can see Frodo when he's wearing the ring, which has no power over him and Elrond says a world ruled by Sauron would have no interest for him but he could not take the ring himself.
Isn't anyone going to say he's a Time Lord?
He's actually an incarnation of Suzumiya Haruhi, when she was going through an obsession with medieval fantasy.
Clearly Tom is actually a Refugee From Discworld. You know it's true

[Bêthberry]

I think Tom really practices the power of Now, don't you all think?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

really? that's kind of an obnoxious approach

Agreed; in hindsight that wasn't very proper or friendly. Apologies; that the Tylenol and coffee hadn't taken effect will be my excuse. What I meant to say was:

"To show my theory valid, I will next show, politely, how other theories are less likely, given the evidence."

and also entirely false I say the world is a cube, to support it I'll destroy the image of a flat world. Doesn't make me right

Don't know what you mean.

Let me Destroy yours

I was hoping for some feedback, and deserve the bolded verb.

Eru wouldn't last against Sauron?

Stated by whom? How do we know if the person making such a statement actually knows what he/she/it is talking about? For example, Rohan was thought to pay tribute to Sauron. And do we 'really' know if Gollum ate human infants?

Also, my argument has an analogy in Jesus the Christ. Christians believe Him to be 100% God yet 100% man. Though at any time He could have called forth angels to defend him - nay, to keep him from merely stubbing His toe - Jesus veiled His divinity, and so lived as as one of us. This meant that He could be scourged, stabbed, bleed, suffer thirst, and eventually die via crucifixion. Tolkien knew all of this. I posit that when he kept Tom in the text, he may have wanted the same kind of God-man around, self-limiting, though much more than your average citizen (especially as Eru was Goldberry and Fatty Lumpkin as well).

Didn't Gandalf limit his power? So we have precedent.

It is said his power is limited beyond the forest.

By Tom's own choice. Think that Elrond or Gandalf states that Tom has set boundaries for his own pleasure, and awaits some *thing* to go beyond them.

...Though, as Tom seems to be only within in the Old Forest, not sure how he has talks with Farmer Maggot.

Eru's power would be limitless.

Agreed. Why then do you limit Eru's power to *not* be able to live as a triune being in Middle Earth with a veiled powers?

Obviously Tom isn't Eru NEXT

To some.

[Hakon]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

It is said his power is limited beyond the forest.

Originally Posted by alatar

By Tom's own choice. Think that Elrond or Gandalf states that Tom has set boundaries for his own pleasure, and awaits some *thing* to go beyond them.

Maybe Tom's power is limited because of the fact that he does not in a way belong. This goes back to the letter that talked about different planes of existence. It could just be because the plane of existence that Tom is from only overlaps with the forest and that makes his power limited to the forest. It could also be as Alatar stated and he set his own boundaries or it could be both.

[Morsul the Dark]

I believe Elrond says something to the effect of "If Sauron came with all his mihgt not even Tom Bombadil could outlast him.

and the cube bit what I was saying was disproving one theory doesn't make another more valid.
Hey, do the rings give their bearer power to bestow some sort of power to others?
Bombadil almost seem to the Old Forest what Galadriel is to Lorien.

and I think I'll delete my last post, mostly out of ander the tone is unbecoming of the downs

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Though maybe not particularly enamoured with ingenious Downers (in theory)...

With some of us it is possible that enarmoured might be preferable.

Originally Posted by alatar

Why people think the worst of me, I'll never know. Sometime's a post is just a post.

Worst? Here I was thinking it was a valuable form of community service!

Originally Posted by alatar

And then for Tolkien to go on later and deny that Tom is divine (well, of course it's not...not in that way). Definitely would be a fun prank.

As we all know, Tom is divine.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

it jibes with my idea that Bombadil is Tolkien's literary joke

Humour is the best antidote to horror.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

He's an ent that aint, or rather, a pent-up ent that lent out its cerements then went and spent time in a tent as an unfashionable, dissident gent. That's what he meant.

Venting or lenting, this is a bent rent.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I know it can't always be done, but that doesn't stop me trying

The best ones are those that allow us to keep trying.

Originally Posted by Ibrin

I really, really, REALLY hope Eru is on a higher plane than Peter Jackson...

The author of his works rather than in his works.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Again Tom Bombadil is Old Man Willow's Ent Spirit one day Old Man Bombadil(for he was an ent was walking around and saw Goldberry now unlike other ents who sometimes slow down and become treeish he fell in love and became super hasty and happy so hasty that in fact the spirit was ripped from the ent body which became bitter and angry and tom went and "put on his 'A' game" for goldberry

that is also why he can control tghe forest he is a treeherder

this is based on the ent creation theory yvanna put spirits into trees