Eowyn and feminism and Tolkien - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 08-14-2009, 08:28 AM

Y'know, when I was a kid and first read LotR, I never thought that Eowyn was putting aside a traditionally male role and taking on a traditionally female one. I wasn't quite sure what I thought about it, but looking back now (especially after having gone through years of therapy to overcome the effects of being born into a highly abusive family, in which the controlling parent didn't allow anyone to choose their role in the family, much less in life), things are clearer. Eowyn in Rohan was chafing under what she perceived to be a thankless role that was forced upon her, that of staying home and caring for Theoden while her brother rode off to the excitement and freedom and glory of war. I don't think she was bothered by the "feminine role," since she genuinely loved and cared for Theoden, and had apparently done enough as a strong leader to make the people of Rohan love and respect her, and want her to lead and help defend them in the absence of the king. In this, she shows that she has both leadership and nurturing qualities. It was the whisperings of Wormtongue that made her discontent, with her apparent lot in life, and in herself (as Gandalf points out to Eomer while Eowyn lies stricken in the Houses of Healing). I don't think the tale of Eowyn shows a contempt for feminism, or a belief that women should "stay in their place." I believe it's a little morality play of its own about the evils of heart and soul that befall a person when they deny who and what they are in their own right. By rebelling against her life in Edoras and desiring to ride away to war, Eowyn was denying the part of her that truly was a healer and nurturer. Wormtongue had made her think that these parts of herself were mean and worthless, that the only thing worthwhile in life was the glory of battle; it was another way of weakening Rohan from within, as Denethor's use of the palantir weakened Gondor from within. When Eowyn says she will be a shield maiden no more, she is making a choice free of manipulation, and accepting a part of herself she had been rejecting. She never says she will cease being a leader, but she has now had a taste of the reality of war, and glory won on the battlefield, and thus can now make a choice concerning the direction of her life that is based on experience rather than conjecture. She is no longer denying her true self.

Or maybe she just decided the grass was greener on that side of the fence.

davem · 08-15-2009, 01:27 AM

Can't resist the temptation to introduce a spot of humour into the proceedings - found this hilarious piece by an American comic I'd never heard of before. Brilliant stuff on Eowyn http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106944.

Lush · 08-15-2009, 02:04 AM

I laughed so hard that I ruined my mascara. Thanks, davem.

A Little Green · 08-15-2009, 02:30 AM

I think the answer to Elmo's question depends entirely on whether you read Éowyn's tale as a metaphor of a woman's life in general or as the story of one individual. I like to think that it was Éowyn's choice as an individual person and has nothing to do with what Tolkien thought a woman should choose. There is a part of me, though, that is bound to read a more general meaning to her choice. It can be read as "Éowyn was never truly happy playing a man but learns at last her true nature, finds her way to a nice man and a womanly profession and becomes happy as soon as she learns her true and proper place in society". That, I think, is a slightly disturbing way of interpretation but it pops into my mind nevertheless every time I read the LotR.

Actually, I find it rather amusing that I should be upset by someone choosing to be a healer rather than a killer, choosing peace over war. If the one making that choice was a man I would go "Wow, that's so cool of him, great choice!" but since it's a woman my first thought is "Oh crap why does she have to submit to oppressive gender roles in order to become happy?" Thinking rationally, turning from a fighter to a healer should be just as cool done by a woman as it would be if done by a man, and yet somehow I don't feel like it. Now where's the equality in that?

Mithalwen · 08-15-2009, 11:44 AM

Healing is not a specifically female thing - in Gondor women serve in the houses of healing but the herb-master is a man. I am sure that Eowyn intended to be a Doctor not a nurse....

Do you think less of Elrond because he chose to be a master of healing but let Glorfindel lead Rivendell's military force? Eowyn is not choosing between a male and female role but between life and death. Anyway she had nowhere left to go in achievement after wiping out the Lord of the Nazgul really...

Anyone would think that shield maiding were her sole vocation rather than a necessity borne of the desperate times and situation she was living in.

David Doughan gave a splendid talk on Women in Tolkien at Oxonmoot a few years back and it is clear that his attitude changed significantly - he moved from deploring Sayers' Gaudy Night in 1932 to reading de Beauvoir.

My theory is that we can thank Priscilla for that .... having intelligent daughters makes a certain degree of feminism inevitable for the most chauvenist man since whatever they think about women in general is tempered by desiring the best for their daughters and that tends not to involve limiting their rights, education and life choices.

Priscilla is the possessor of a keen intellect, had a very good education for a women of her generation and became a probation officer which is hardly a typical female career even today. I am sure she and some of the outstanding female students Tolkien had must have influenced some of the antediluvian attitude Tolkien held about women - before he met many

Tuor in Gondolin · 08-15-2009, 02:09 PM

That bunch of hateful Rethugican tripe by Ellis Washington
recommended above is not in the slightest "funny". Btw,
he's in the pay of the bigoted Michael Savage. Quite disgusting
people, no doubt also birthers and deathers.

davem · 08-15-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

That bunch of hateful Rethugican tripe by Ellis Washington
recommended above is not in the slightest "funny".:

No - come on, its clearly meant to be a satirical deconstruction of right-wing extremism 'n' all post-modern 'n' stuff - me 'n' Lush laughed at it anyway..... How do you seriously get from Eowyn's hopeless yearning for death in battle to denouncing Medicare as 'evil'? Besides, a careful reading of LotR clearly shows that Gondor has a National Health Service - "The Houses of Healing" = NHS: treatment free at the point of use- you notice no-one gets asked for their Insurance details before getting treated for the effects of the Black Breath! And I have to say that the Master of the Houses & Ioreth are clearly models for Kenneth Williams & Hattie Jaques in Peter Rogers seminal masterpiece Carry On Matron

Aiwendil · 08-15-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

Can't resist the temptation to introduce a spot of humour into the proceedings - found this hilarious piece by an American comic I'd never heard of before. Brilliant stuff on Eowyn http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106944.

That is hilarious - in an incredibly depressing and frightening way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

he moved from deploring Sayers' Gaudy Night in 1932 to reading de Beauvoir

I'm not sure I agree that this has much bearing on the issue. As I recall, what he actually said was that he liked all the Peter Wimsey books up to Gaudy Night, which he did not. So it's not as though he was ever prejudiced against female authors. And Gaudy Night simply isn't everyone's cup of tea (I'll take The Nine Tailors over it any day).

Orofarne · 07-03-2010, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

That bunch of hateful Rethugican tripe by Ellis Washington
recommended above is not in the slightest "funny". Btw,
he's in the pay of the bigoted Michael Savage. Quite disgusting
people, no doubt also birthers and deathers.

Thankyouthankyouthankyou! Mr. Washington is extremely dreadful, and obviously needs to read the books.
Also, Eowyn is a rather minor character in the books, and I really don't think that Tolkien was remarking on feminism, more on war. Didn't we keep hearing about how Faramir is something of a pacifist, and how the hobbits really didnt like seeing men kill one another? Eowyn was just another handy character to drive that point home, and she was so angry at being left to fester with the noncombatants while her uncle went to die, that she came too. After being very heroic, her renouncement of the warrior's trade is only another way of saying that war is bad. Besides, Tolkien himself fought in WWI, so War Is Bad was probably ground into his skin along with the blood and muck he accumulated in the trenches.

MCRmyGirl4eva · 03-17-2014, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

Can't resist the temptation to introduce a spot of humour into the proceedings - found this hilarious piece by an American comic I'd never heard of before. Brilliant stuff on Eowyn http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106944.

Well, I may not agree with the political view of this, but it does integrate Eowyn's quote well.

cellurdur · 03-20-2014, 09:31 AM

I have felt that Eowyn more than any character has a similar story to Elrond. It's a shame the two of them never really got to speak properly to each other. I think they would have understood each other very well. In the end both of them were happy to give up the sword to be healers.

08-14-2009, 08:28 AM	#1
Ibrîniðilpathânezel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the Helcaraxe Posts: 733	Y'know, when I was a kid and first read LotR, I never thought that Eowyn was putting aside a traditionally male role and taking on a traditionally female one. I wasn't quite sure what I thought about it, but looking back now (especially after having gone through years of therapy to overcome the effects of being born into a highly abusive family, in which the controlling parent didn't allow anyone to choose their role in the family, much less in life), things are clearer. Eowyn in Rohan was chafing under what she perceived to be a thankless role that was forced upon her, that of staying home and caring for Theoden while her brother rode off to the excitement and freedom and glory of war. I don't think she was bothered by the "feminine role," since she genuinely loved and cared for Theoden, and had apparently done enough as a strong leader to make the people of Rohan love and respect her, and want her to lead and help defend them in the absence of the king. In this, she shows that she has both leadership and nurturing qualities. It was the whisperings of Wormtongue that made her discontent, with her apparent lot in life, and in herself (as Gandalf points out to Eomer while Eowyn lies stricken in the Houses of Healing). I don't think the tale of Eowyn shows a contempt for feminism, or a belief that women should "stay in their place." I believe it's a little morality play of its own about the evils of heart and soul that befall a person when they deny who and what they are in their own right. By rebelling against her life in Edoras and desiring to ride away to war, Eowyn was denying the part of her that truly was a healer and nurturer. Wormtongue had made her think that these parts of herself were mean and worthless, that the only thing worthwhile in life was the glory of battle; it was another way of weakening Rohan from within, as Denethor's use of the palantir weakened Gondor from within. When Eowyn says she will be a shield maiden no more, she is making a choice free of manipulation, and accepting a part of herself she had been rejecting. She never says she will cease being a leader, but she has now had a taste of the reality of war, and glory won on the battlefield, and thus can now make a choice concerning the direction of her life that is based on experience rather than conjecture. She is no longer denying her true self. Or maybe she just decided the grass was greener on that side of the fence. __________________ Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill

08-15-2009, 01:27 AM	#2
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Can't resist the temptation to introduce a spot of humour into the proceedings - found this hilarious piece by an American comic I'd never heard of before. Brilliant stuff on Eowyn http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106944. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

08-15-2009, 02:04 AM	#3
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	I laughed so hard that I ruined my mascara. Thanks, davem. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

08-15-2009, 02:30 AM	#4
A Little Green Leaf-clad Lady Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,571	I think the answer to Elmo's question depends entirely on whether you read Éowyn's tale as a metaphor of a woman's life in general or as the story of one individual. I like to think that it was Éowyn's choice as an individual person and has nothing to do with what Tolkien thought a woman should choose. There is a part of me, though, that is bound to read a more general meaning to her choice. It can be read as "Éowyn was never truly happy playing a man but learns at last her true nature, finds her way to a nice man and a womanly profession and becomes happy as soon as she learns her true and proper place in society". That, I think, is a slightly disturbing way of interpretation but it pops into my mind nevertheless every time I read the LotR. Actually, I find it rather amusing that I should be upset by someone choosing to be a healer rather than a killer, choosing peace over war. If the one making that choice was a man I would go "Wow, that's so cool of him, great choice!" but since it's a woman my first thought is "Oh crap why does she have to submit to oppressive gender roles in order to become happy?" Thinking rationally, turning from a fighter to a healer should be just as cool done by a woman as it would be if done by a man, and yet somehow I don't feel like it. Now where's the equality in that? __________________ "But some stories, small, simple ones about setting out on adventures or people doing wonders, tales of miracles and monsters, have outlasted all the people who told them, and some of them have outlasted the lands in which they were created."

08-15-2009, 11:44 AM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Healing is not a specifically female thing - in Gondor women serve in the houses of healing but the herb-master is a man. I am sure that Eowyn intended to be a Doctor not a nurse.... Do you think less of Elrond because he chose to be a master of healing but let Glorfindel lead Rivendell's military force? Eowyn is not choosing between a male and female role but between life and death. Anyway she had nowhere left to go in achievement after wiping out the Lord of the Nazgul really... Anyone would think that shield maiding were her sole vocation rather than a necessity borne of the desperate times and situation she was living in. David Doughan gave a splendid talk on Women in Tolkien at Oxonmoot a few years back and it is clear that his attitude changed significantly - he moved from deploring Sayers' Gaudy Night in 1932 to reading de Beauvoir. My theory is that we can thank Priscilla for that .... having intelligent daughters makes a certain degree of feminism inevitable for the most chauvenist man since whatever they think about women in general is tempered by desiring the best for their daughters and that tends not to involve limiting their rights, education and life choices. Priscilla is the possessor of a keen intellect, had a very good education for a women of her generation and became a probation officer which is hardly a typical female career even today. I am sure she and some of the outstanding female students Tolkien had must have influenced some of the antediluvian attitude Tolkien held about women - before he met many Last edited by Mithalwen; 08-15-2009 at 02:39 PM.

08-15-2009, 02:09 PM	#6
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	That bunch of hateful Rethugican tripe by Ellis Washington recommended above is not in the slightest "funny". Btw, he's in the pay of the bigoted Michael Savage. Quite disgusting people, no doubt also birthers and deathers. __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

03-20-2014, 09:31 AM	#11
cellurdur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 276	I have felt that Eowyn more than any character has a similar story to Elrond. It's a shame the two of them never really got to speak properly to each other. I think they would have understood each other very well. In the end both of them were happy to give up the sword to be healers.