Eowyn and feminism and Tolkien

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by skip spence

It's hard to believe that there were no kings or stewards who died with only daughters left behind anyway. Yes, this should be checked up

The father-son bloodline of the Stewards did not fail, from Mardil to Denethor. Apparently the Stewards learned from the Kings' mistakes

I agree with Skippy with the points on Aldarion and the ruling Queens. But though in Gondor the female line was disregarded, in Rohan if the female bloodline was sort of next-in-line. Thus we have Helm Hammerhand's nephew Frealaf being king after him; and Eomer after Theoden.

Perhaps the Gondorians shouldn't have been so stupid as to disregard the female line... for princesses could bear potential heirs for their crowned brothers too. That is the thing hard to believe, that the line of Anarion truly ended, i.e., wouldn't a male heir via a female descendant have counted? This for me is sexism, Salic Law-style.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Lindale

The father-son bloodline of the Stewards did not fail, from Mardil to Denethor. Apparently the Stewards learned from the Kings' mistakes

Making sure that the Steward couldn't leave the realm must have helped as well in that regard.

Perhaps the Gondorians shouldn't have been so stupid as to disregard the female line... for princesses could bear potential heirs for their crowned brothers too. That is the thing hard to believe, that the line of Anarion truly ended, i.e., wouldn't a male heir via a female descendant have counted? This for me is sexism, Salic Law-style.

I think this was the exact problem with Arvedui's claim on the Southern Throne. If there had been a stronger tradition of allowing for the female line to count, presumably his claim would have been stronger. However, I think the rejection of that claim was more based on the fact that people in power in the South didn't want a Northern king at this point than any sort of sexism. They used such reasoning to further their own ends, and at a great detriment to themselves.

What is interesting is that even though sometimes Tolkien's societies do not honor the role of females in succession, Tolkien himself does. The line of Elendil came from the line of the Kings of Numenor because of a female (older female from before women were allowed to rule? I don't remember). Heck, I don't even remember the name of Silmarien's husband: she essentially started the line of the Faithful who ended up becoming Kings in Gondor. And again we have the case of Firiel--you could argue that not allowing her blood to validate Arvedui's claim was a result of the corruption of Gondorian society at this point and ended up hurting them in the long run.

Then we also have the interesting case of inheritance in the Shire, where after marriage husband and wife are regarded as one legal unit with joint ownership, allowing the survivor of the two to inherit all legal and economic power regardless of sex.

Bringing this back to Rohan, I think the fact that the people are willing to accept Eowyn as a ruler shows that their society is relatively healthy. True, it's not something that Theoden immediately thinks of (Whom do you trust? The house of Eorl! ...But... I need Eomer in battle!), but other people think of it, put the idea forward, and don't seem to care about the fact that Eowyn is a woman. It's more important that she's part of the right bloodline.

Which means that her dereliction had more to do with personal reasons than any sort of feminism, although of course when you're soul-sick you can use any sort of reasoning to justify something that's wrong and I'm sure some of that reasoning was "they don't want me to come along because I'm a woman!". Well... not really...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

I think this was the exact problem with Arvedui's claim on the Southern Throne. If there had been a stronger tradition of allowing for the female line to count, presumably his claim would have been stronger. However, I think the rejection of that claim was more based on the fact that people in power in the South didn't want a Northern king at this point than any sort of sexism. They used such reasoning to further their own ends, and at a great detriment to themselves..

I'd agree that any prejudice against Arvedui's claim deriving from a female heritage through Fíriel was relatively immaterial to the reason his claim was disallowed. Arvedui didn't rely soley on that as a basis for his claim: he was also a direct descendant of Isildur. The connexion to Gondor through Fíriel was just something that should have strengthened his claim even further.
The argument of Gondor against him appears to be based upon the idea that Isildur had handed off Gondor to Anárion, and Gondor could order things as it liked. Tradition, and probably pride, held sway more than common sense.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

What is interesting is that even though sometimes Tolkien's societies do not honor the role of females in succession, Tolkien himself does. The line of Elendil came from the line of the Kings of Numenor because of a female (older female from before women were allowed to rule? I don't remember). Heck, I don't even remember the name of Silmarien's husband: she essentially started the line of the Faithful who ended up becoming Kings in Gondor.

I don't know the name of Silmarien's husband either. But she was the eldest child of Tar-Elendil, and indeed the apparent beginner of the Lords of Andúnië, of which came Elendil and Isildur. It's rather ironic that Gondor 'forgot' that.