The Capital of Cardolan

[Rhugga II]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

MERP=Middle-earth Role Playing?

Yes.

[Gordis]

I would guess the capital of Cardolan was either Tharbad (the biggest and the oldest city in Cardolan) or the fortress on the Barrow-Downs, whatever its name may have been:

They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills and in the hollows among the hills. Sheep were bleating in flocks. Green walls and white walls rose. There were fortresses on the heights. Kings of little kingdoms fought together, and the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords. There was victory and defeat; and towers fell, fortresses were burned, and flames went up into the sky. Gold was piled on the biers of dead kings and queens; and mounds covered them, and the stone doors were shut; and the grass grew over all.

[Rhugga II]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I would guess the capital of Cardolan was either Tharbad (the biggest and the oldest city in Cardolan) or the fortress on the Barrow-Downs, whatever its name may have been:

I think this is the best one may conjecture from the books alone. However, I am curious if there are MERPers lurking on the forum who would want to discuss issues of the North Kingdom(s) prior to and during the Great Northern War in 1356 (although in MERP its 1352-1359).

[Rumil]

or indeed the occurrence of parachuting hippos.

(sorrry, so very sorry)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I would guess the capital of Cardolan was either Tharbad (the biggest and the oldest city in Cardolan) or the fortress on the Barrow-Downs, whatever its name may have been:

I think Tharbad was more likely than the Downs, as it doesn't appear that there were any structures at Tyrn Gorthad, except the barrows. Frodo and Co. failed to mention seeing any evidence of a ruined fortress.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think Tharbad was more likely than the Downs, as it doesn't appear that there were any structures at Tyrn Gorthad, except the barrows. Frodo and Co. failed to mention seeing any evidence of a ruined fortress.

As it says in the Tale of Years, the Dunedain took Tyrn Gorthad seriously enough to defend it in 1409 of the Third Age. But there is no very specific mention of structures there. But Tom Bombadil seems to also have some memories of the Dunedain there, beyond them being simply buried there...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

As it says in the Tale of Years, the Dunedain took Tyrn Gorthad seriously enough to defend it in 1409 of the Third Age. But there is no very specific mention of structures there. But Tom Bombadil seems to also have some memories of the Dunedain there, beyond them being simply buried there...

It looks to me as though they simply fled there from the forces of Angmar and were cornered and forced to fight.

A remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns) or took refuge in the Forest behind.

FOTR Appendix A

If they had a stonghold or fortress there, I wouldn't think they would have been obliged to hide in the Old Forest. They might have had some temporary housing around the Downs, but I don't think that region was ever intended as a site for permanant habitation.

It is said that the mounds of Tyrn Gorthad, as the Barrowdowns were called of old, are very ancient, and that many were built in the days of the old world of the First Age by the forefathers of the Edain.....Those hills were therefore revered by the Dúnedain after their return; and there many of their lords and kings were buried.

FOTR Appendix A

I can't find any evidence that anything was there apart from the mounds. It appears the area was regarded solely for its historical interest, and the honoured dead that lay there.

[Rhugga II]

I think Inziladun is probably right. Intersting about the parachuting hippos, Rumil. I agree that some of the elements of MERP seem to be as alien to Tolkien as hippo paratroopers, but at their best they merely conjectured, which is something I like to do with Middle Earth. To wit, I am curious exactly what we know - or what you all have discussed - about the First Great Northern War (1352-1359), as it is known in MERP. In Tale of the Years it is simply noted that in 1356 Argeleb fell in battle with Rhudaur. In her atlas of Middle Earth, Karen Fonstad visualizes a two-pronged assault on Amon Sul by the forces of Angmar marching southeast and the army of Rhudaur marching down the East Road. They converge on Amon Sul, but the armies of Cardolan and Arthedain throw them back.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I can't find any evidence that anything was there apart from the mounds. It appears the area was regarded solely for its historical interest, and the honoured dead that lay there.

The very presence of the mounds, however, would seem to indicate a wider Dúnedainic presence in Tyrn Gorthad than mere military flight. The Barrows and environs include stone architecture, which suggests to me that some of the Barrows, at least, predate the flight-to-the-forest situation of the final Cardolanrim. This being the case, it seems to me quite unlikely that the Dúnedain buried there would have been transported thither from a great distance.

Granted, of course, the Númenoreans were greatly skilled in embalming, and this was inherited at least in Gondor, so presumably for a time in Arnor as well, but there's still no reason to assume that the Arnorian, or later Cardolanian "Valley of the Kings" would have been located so far from the capital, as in Númenor, Armenelos was nigh to Meneltarma (the burial valley being in the southern shadow of the mountain), and in Gondor it was also in the shadow of a mountain--Mindolluin, within the walls of Minas Anor.

Mind you, both these examples would seem to indicate a preference for mountain burials among the Dúnedainic royalty, but Tyrn Gorthad is much further from Annúminas than either Mindolluin or Meneltarma from their respective cities, nor is it truly mountainous. Annúminas had much closer hills of equivalent or greater height in the Hills of Evendim or even the North Downs, and the later, Cardolanic royalty, if we assume they reigned from Tharbad (personally, I don't discount the possiblility of an unknown, more centrally located capital, perhaps in the much nearer South Downs), would have been even further away.

If the Barrow downs indicate royal burial, and I emphasize that I have no reason to think they do, then this would indicate a much nearer Cardolanic capital than Tharbad. Perhaps not Tyrn Gorthad itself--I have already suggested the South Downs, and I think a glance at a map of Eriador would make such a general location strategic, if not likely.

On the other hand, if the barrows of Tyrn Gorthad are not royal, which I would presume exclusively if the treasure in the burial mounds were less, then it seems to me that there must be a closer source of the dead Dúnedain--closer, perhaps, even than the South Downs, though the embalming Dúnedain before ailing Cardolan was absorbed back into Arthedain could have made such a distance possible. Still, if we aren't looking for royalty, then we aren't looking for a major city or fortress--perhaps just a major Númenorean estate--the ancestors of the "last prince of Cardolan" perhaps--and perhaps it isn't too untoward to think there may have been some Dúnedain, perhaps of great wealth, resident among the later-named Barrow-Downs themselves, or perhaps just to the east.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

I guess I'd better explain my rather obscure comment

The parachuting hippo was in a picture in one edition of the MERP rulebook, merrily floating down over a serene pastoral scene, small but quite distinct (somewhere amongst the innumerable tables if I remember). It always made me chuckle and I've never heard why or how it got there.

Meanwhile back at Cardolan,

Amon Sul was where one of the Palantirs was kept was it not? Pretty much near the junction of all three kingdoms, and a major object of the military campaigns. (Quite why it couldn't be moved I don't know, perhaps a pride thing?)

Not sure if I remember this correctly, but wasn't Tharbad on the border between Gondorian and Arnorian land? I'm sure someone will put me right.

Another candidate for Cardolanian capital could be the settlement in the Angle where the Rangers had their main base in Aragorn's day, maybe.