Tolkien and George R. Martin

[Rhugga II]

Martin is not for you if you have a weak stomach. He is not the American Tolkien. No one is the [insert nationality here] Tolkien. He is not a linguist. He was screenwriter and sci-fi author before he took up High Fantasy. However, I argue that he is quite good. He is realistic (in a fantasy sense) and there are true "good" and "evil" characters, but there are A LOT of gray characters. The character development is excellent (every main character has or get their own POV chapters) and magic is kept in the background, especially until the two most recent books. If you don't like nasty people and descriptions of the nasty things they do or the realistic battle scenes that really capture the horrors of medieval war, then I could see how you would have a hard time reading thousands of pages of it!

A question this raises for me - is it possible for modern fantasy authors to write a good trilogy or even a decent number of books? I am thinking of Martin, Goodkind, and Jordan and their insanely lengthy works. The closest I can think is Tad Williams Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn and the third book of that had to be cut in two for the paperback!

[Pitchwife]

OT excursus -

Originally Posted by Rhugga II

A question this raises for me - is it possible for modern fantasy authors to write a good trilogy or even a decent number of books? I am thinking of Martin, Goodkind, and Jordan and their insanely lengthy works.

You know, it's funny how the trilogy format became so associated with fantasy chiefly because of LotR when Tolkien insisted again & again that LotR isn't a trilogy but a single novel and the decision to publish it in 3 volumes was Allen & Unwin's. There's really no reason why fantasy should be in trilogies rather than single volumes or any other number of books.
That said, the 3-volume novel is an apt format for telling an extensive story while still keeping a sense of focus and purpose - something which many of the moderns seem to be lacking. Unfortunately, I haven't read Martin or Goodkind (yet, although I'm getting really curious 'bout Martin), but Jordan, may he rest in peace, is a specially lamentable example - lamentable because I really liked some of his ideas and can't help feeling that if only he'd cut down on braid-tugging, descriptions of clothing and Aes Sedai intrigues, he might have wrapped up the story several volumes ago.
But yes, it's still possible. If I may flog my personal hobby-horse once again - The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Eight volumes up to now and aiming for ten, linked by setting and recurring characters and themes, but divided into two 3vn's and a quartet, each with their own well-defined story arc. Sort of a trilogy of trilogies.

The closest I can think is Tad Williams Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn and the third book of that had to be cut in two for the paperback!

Indeed, TW's a good example of how to do it right: detailed and panoramic world-building (including some 'unexplained vistas' of things beyond recorded history and geography), lots of POV characters, but he never loses sight of the story he's telling. He also has some nicely grey characters - most notably Gúthwulf, who is first presented as one of the villains, but becomes more and more likeable later on; even Elias and Ineluki himself have convincing subjective motives for what they're doing (actually, Pryrates may be the only cliché villain in the whole book). His elves (the Sithi) are both Tolkienesquely lovely, noble and faerish (for lack of a better adjective) and at the same time slightly eerie and clearly non-human.
And you can tell he's a sincere Tolkien fan, as he's paid homage to the Prof in several ways: the first thing that comes to mind is the Erkynlanders with their Anglo-Saxon names, but there's also the term 'white-foxes' for the Norns, which (for me at least) clearly echoes Tolkien's 'white-fiends' (Easterling name for the Elves in the Narn). A few years ago I had the luck to be present at a reading of his where, asked about his favourite scene from LotR, he answered, after very little hesitation: 'Horns, horns, horns. Great horns of the North. Rohan had come at last.' Can't find fault with that!

EDIT: P.S. Welcome to the Downs, Rhugga, and enjoy being dead! You've made some interesting posts so far, and I hope we'll see more of you!

[Thinlómien]

Personally, I do like Martin, but for very different reasons than I love Tolkien. I like his gruesome realism and his complex characters and the lack of definite good and evil. I don't really think there are good or evil characters in the books (Izzy, make your judgements only when you've passed further, my favourites and least favourites have changed innumerable times on the course of reading the series and I have started to understand characters whom I originally thought flat and unrealistic).

But - of course! - I disagree with what these people say about Tolkien. They have very many sides, it is just not explicitely stated, you have to read between the lines. Just think of the coolness and subtlety of characters like Aerin, or even the hues in Frodo or Aragorn (!).

Also, although Martin is good, he is in no way a match for Tolkien. True, he has his elaborate world, but it's history is not as deep, it has no own languages or such, and Martin doesn't have the same sense of words as Tolkien, nor does he mix folklore or big themes the same way. I'm not claiming he can't write fluently or beautifully, or anything else degrading, but his works just don't reach Tolkien's level and wide scope of expertise.

Originally Posted by Rhugga

A question this raises for me - is it possible for modern fantasy authors to write a good trilogy or even a decent number of books? I am thinking of Martin, Goodkind, and Jordan and their insanely lengthy works. The closest I can think is Tad Williams Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn and the third book of that had to be cut in two for the paperback!

I would point the attention to Ursula Le Guin, the only author that for me can compete with Tolkien in terms of wisdom&depth, writing skill and entertainment value (catchy storytelling) combined. If you're looking for something less "profound", Guy Gavriel Kay's books have wonderful storytelling, recycling of old myths, beautiful language and deep tragedy, and Robin Hobb is a superb storyteller, character-creator and recycler of clichés.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

If you're looking for something less "profound", Guy Gavriel Kay's books have wonderful storytelling, recycling of old myths, beautiful language and deep tragedy, and Robin Hobb is a superb storyteller, character-creator and recycler of clichés.

If you can get around the religious overtones (and to me, they're no more heavy handed than the ones in C.S. Lewis's Narnia) I've also derived no small joy from Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker series. At six books (with one more to go) and two short stories (plus one epic length poem if your a real devotee) it's a bit lengthy. but as has been discussed seven books is nothing compared to how long people like Jordan have strached things (one of my other frustrations with Jordan is that, as less and less actual "in story" time passed with each book versus outside time (the time it took the actual books to come out), and the story got more and more complex, it became harder and harder, and yet more and more necessary for my comprehsion of each new book, to re-read ALL of the previos ones before starting each new volume). Card's Alvin is particulary good if you have a fondness for American "Tall Tales" as opposed to the romaticized medival world that most fantasy writers seem to look to for inspiration.

[Thinlómien]

PS. More 'downish book recommendations can be found here. It is also a less off-topic place to discuss other writers than Tolkien and Martin.

[obloquy]

Martin blows my mind. I pooped my pants at least 5 times while reading the first three books of his series. Dany and the funeral pyre??? Melisandre birthing a shadow??? Seriously.