Robbing the Cradle

[ElanorFB]

I think part of what makes it easier is Aragorn's Numenorean bloodline. And his tragic family history. It makes him feel aged and just as part of the past as Arwen.

[skip spence]

A couple things I'd like to say.

Firstly, Arwen, if we think of her as a real person, might not have lived such a sheltered life as the general opinion makes out. Maybe she had her fair share of dangerous adventures and travelled widely too, but if these experiences wasn't important on a grand scale for the history of Middle Earth, there would be little use mentioning them in the tales, which is not to say they didn't occur.

Secondly, Elves don't seem that hung-up on age. Off the top of my head I can think of a few examples of relatively young Men and Elves making a name for themselves and becoming very respected despite being relatively young. There's Dior, Thingol's heir, who became king of Doriath at a very young age. We have the snotty Maeglin, who rose to a very prominent position in Gondolin, which of course goes for Tuor too. Let's not forget Túrin, who made it big in Doriath and Nargothrond, and Beren. These three Men were loved by Elven princesses too of course. Perhaps age truly is but a number when ageing don't affect yourself?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Firstly, Arwen, if we think of her as a real person, might not have lived such a sheltered life as the general opinion makes out. Maybe she had her fair share of dangerous adventures and travelled widely too, but if these experiences wasn't important on a grand scale for the history of Middle Earth, there would be little use mentioning them in the tales, which is not to say they didn't occur.

If we're talking Arwen as imagined by Peter Jackson, you're probably right.
In the books, though, I don't see much evidence she did a great deal of travelling. Journeys to and from Lórien (likely under guard) would seem to be the limit of the world she knew.
Her mother, of course, was captured by Orcs while crossing the Mountains, but there's no indication Arwen ever was in any sort of danger. And why would she have gone anywhere but Lórien?

Originally Posted by skip spence

Secondly, Elves don't seem that hung-up on age.

Among themselves, I'd agree. But it appears they generally did take it into consideration when dealing with Men. Thingol had his 'baseborn mortal' remark to Beren. Legolas made several references to his great age relative to the rest of the Fellowship.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Among themselves, I'd agree. But it appears they generally did take it into consideration when dealing with Men. Thingol had his 'baseborn mortal' remark to Beren. Legolas made several references to his great age relative to the rest of the Fellowship.

That is true, although I think again, it was not really the "age" that was in concern there, when they said "age", they meant "race". I mean: when an Elf said "I am 1000 years old, you youngsters", it was more like just underlining the fact that he was an Elf. I don't think the age would play that big role per se. Aside from that, I think the Elves got quite soon used to the humans' short lifespan, they had to cope with the fact that there is this short-lived species, but they very soon discovered that amazingly, these mortals can make so much of a difference in even their short lives, or that they can be so wise no matter that they are ten times younger than an average Elvish kid. So the Elves, I think, would not really consider the age a problem. Saying "I am Elf AND I am old and have experienced far more than you" was an argument for the sake of an argument, an argument for racists, if I were to put it rather nastily - I think it would not be "politically correct" among Elves to normally use it as a real argument. In Thingol's case, it was just this, in Legolas' case a mere joke.

[skip spence]

If we're talking Arwen as imagined by Peter Jackson, you're probably right.

No! honestly, Liv Tyler, fit though she be, has nothing to do with it. My point was simply that though we never hear of any daring bravado from Arwen, neither is it stated that she spent her entire life gossiping in the beauty-saloon or reading harlequin-novels in her girl's room, as far as I'm aware. We hardly know anything about her life or personality, do we?

She probably lived a quieter life than her brother's though, because since it is written that they did travel widely, taking every opportunity fighting the servants of the Enemy, we might assume she did not. But saying that the evidence points to her living a sheltered life isn't something that would hold in a court of law, is it?

To return to the original question, I don't really think it's that strange that Arwen would fall for Aragorn. Love and attraction are indeed mysterious and hard to explain, as Lush says, but I also think that there are some general factors that often seem to reoccur among men deemed attractive and desirable, and when a woman falls for a certain man. I realise I'm stepping out on perilously thin ice now, but isn't status something the ladies do seem to go for in a man, speaking very generally? Now status could include many things, but always involves having a name in some context or other. It could be worldwide fame or notoriety in a certain field but also more mundane qualities like being well liked, respected or even feared in the eyes of others in the near environment.

Influence can't be looked past either, can it? Someone with the power to take control of a situation is more attractive than he who is a leaf on the wind. This might involve having lots of money or political power but also being confident, persuasive or physically able. In today's rich western well-fare societies this factor might have become less important, but I imagine it was the number one factor up until quite recently.

Looks is another factor of course. Love is blind they say, and although that's a nice romantic notion, it's not the entire truth, is it?

Being somehow different I think is important too. Maybe a hard-wired evolutionary instinct against in-breeding, who knows? In any case, girls do seem to go for a man who somehow stands out from the crowd, someone who is different from the usual servings. Not too different, god forbid, but exotic enough to give that well needed spice to a relationship.

(Boys, generally, tend to be less complicated. Answering "Is she fit?" is usually enough to explanain)

Aragorn it seems, should have possessed all these qualities in the eyes of Arwen. He was in a sense famous, as the heir of Isildur, and although Arwen would have seen many such, he was prophesied with a high doom unlike his predecessors. He was also a hard man of action, a great leader aspiring to be king of Men, and probably not hard on the eye either, at least not when he'd had a shower and a shave for once, like when they met in Lorien. For obvious reasons he was also different, making him more interesting than some run-of-the-mill nobleman of Lorien or Rivendell. This combined would make rather him rather hunky, don't you think?

[Morwen]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In the books, though, I don't see much evidence she did a great deal of travelling. Journeys to and from Lórien (likely under guard) would seem to be the limit of the world she knew.
Her mother, of course, was captured by Orcs while crossing the Mountains, but there's no indication Arwen ever was in any sort of danger. And why would she have gone anywhere but Lórien?

The tale of Arwen and Aragorn deals with only a tiny fraction of Arwen's life. I don't know that we are given any indication of what she might have been up to in all the long years of her life prior to meeting Aragorn. I take Skip Spence's point that we don't know enough about her to definitively say that the Rivendell/Lorien route is the extent of her travels.
We do know that she does some traveling. During the 60 (?)year period between her first meeting with Aragorn and the Council of Elrond she apparently makes at least three trips between Rivendell and Lorien:

1. Her journey from Lorien to Rivendell - first meeting with Aragorn
2. Her journey from Rivendell to Lorien - second meeting with Aragorn
3. Her journey from Lorien to Rivendell - at the time of the Council of Elrond

These journeys take place at a time that Sauron's power in ME is growing and also after the attack on Arwen's mother. Neither of these things appears to have inspired Arwen to become a shut in, confining herself to either the safety of her grandparents' lands or that of her father's house. Instead she appears to be dividing her time between the two places, justifying her father's description of her as Lady of Imladris and Lorien. Given that she does some traveling during the darkening latter days of the third Age, is it not possible that she might have ventured futher afield in the earlier part of it, before her mother's attack, before Sauron had begun to regroup?
Where she would go besides Lorien? Aredhel while she lived with Eol is described as venturing far and wide under starlight. I don't recall any mention of a visit to a specific place. But certainly their excursions could fall under a broad definition of traveling. Similar types of excursions for Arwen in the earlier part of the Third might be a possibility.
I emphasise that the above are suggested possibilities. I am not saying that Arwen definitely and most certainly did these things. But I do agree with Skip Spence that we don't have enought info to definitely and certainly rule them out.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morwen

I am not saying that Arwen definitely and most certainly did these things. But I do agree with Skip Spence that we don't have enought info to definitely and certainly rule them out.

Of couse there is a degree of uncertainty here. I'm not saying Arwen 'adventuring' was completely out of the question.
Beyond Lórien though, I can't conceive of any other places she would have had reason to go. Even Lindon is a long shot, I think. And her brothers, who often rode afield with the Dúnedain, seemed to have confined their journeys to Eriador and Lórien. If they kept their travelling relatively close to home, I see no reason why their sister, the Evenstar of her people, the returned likeness of Lúthien, and the beloved of her father, would have gone places she was likely to run into hardship and peril.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Of couse there is a degree of uncertainty here. I'm not saying Arwen 'adventuring' was completely out of the question.
Beyond Lórien though, I can't conceive of any other places she would have had reason to go. Even Lindon is a long shot, I think. And her brothers, who often rode afield with the Dúnedain, seemed to have confined their journeys to Eriador and Lórien. If they kept their travelling relatively close to home, I see no reason why their sister, the Evenstar of her people, the returned likeness of Lúthien, and the beloved of her father, would have gone places she was likely to run into hardship and peril.

Especially after what happened to her mom...

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Beyond Lórien though, I can't conceive of any other places she would have had reason to go.

Which is why I mentioned Aredhel and her journeys with Eol.

Even Lindon is a long shot, I think. And her brothers, who often rode afield with the Dúnedain, seemed to have confined their journeys to Eriador and Lórien. If they kept their travelling relatively close to home, I see no reason why their sister, the Evenstar of her people, the returned likeness of Lúthien, and the beloved of her father, would have gone places she was likely to run into hardship and peril.

Would there have been no danger involved in the Lorien/Rivendell journey? Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age is not a place free of hardship and peril and given that her mother had already been attacked, it is interesting to me that Arwen travels at all at this time.
Additionally are all periods of the Third Age equally perilous? It's conceivable that it might have been easier to move around during the earlier periods than it was later on.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Morwen

Which is why I mentioned Aredhel and her journeys with Eol.



Would there have been no danger involved in the Lorien/Rivendell journey? Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age is not a place free of hardship and peril and given that her mother had already been attacked, it is interesting to me that Arwen travels at all at this time.
Additionally are all periods of the Third Age equally perilous? It's conceivable that it might have been easier to move around during the earlier periods than it was later on.

Wasn't it precisely on a Rivendell-Lorien journey where her mother was captured and tormented? Not exactly a walk in a park.