What do the High Elves really think of Men?

[Inziladun]

When considering the opinions held by First Age Elves of Men, the deciding factor seems to be how much time and how many opportunities the Elves had to observe them. Those who took the trouble to get to know the Edain, such as Felegund and the Sons of Fëanor, saw their worth.

For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which they had on earth so little.

UT Of Tuor and His Coming To Gondolin

Ulmo's words to Tuor.

The common denominator among the Man-haters seems to that they were not High Elves. The Green-elves of Ossiriand complained to Felegund very soon after Men appeared there.

'Lord' they said, 'if you have power over these newcomers, bid them return by the ways they came, or else to go forward. For we desire no strangers in this land to break the peace in which we live. And these folk are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts; therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.

Silm Of the Coming of Men Into the West

That line about not liking Men because they were 'hunters of beasts' seems highly hypocritical, since there is ample evidence Elves hunted quite a bit themselves.
They were looking for reasons not to like Men. Saeros of Doriath had been of that people, so that might explain his attitude towards Túrin.

On the other hand, the Noldor were quite ready to welcome Men.

Therefore the kings of the three houses of the Noldor, seeing hope of strength in the sons of Men, sent word that any of the Edain that wished might remove and come to dwell among their people.

Silm Of the Coming of Men Into the West

If the Noldor had ulterior motives with their acceptance of the Edain, at least they were willing to give them a place in Beleriandic society.

It seems to me High Elves were less guilty of high-mindedness than either the Sindar or the Avari.

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It seems to me High Elves were less guilty of high-mindedness than either the Sindar or the Avari.

Glad you said this, Inziladun! Now that I think of it, maybe the Noldor have no trouble with newcomers because they are newcomers as well, and any force to bolster their own is welcome. But the Sindar think that the newcome-Noldor and Men are eating up their territories.

Is there a chance the Noldor got "excited" by Men because they've been hearing rumors of them from the Valar back when they were in Aman?

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Glad you said this, Inziladun! Now that I think of it, maybe the Noldor have no trouble with newcomers because they are newcomers as well, and any force to bolster their own is welcome. But the Sindar think that the newcome-Noldor and Men are eating up their territories.

Overall this does seem to be true. Finrod, as mentioned above, is an early example of a Noldor who ended up giving his life for a man, Beren. And in the contrast between Galadriel and Celeborn, Galadriel seems to have developed more sympathy for Men, although she has the further vision as well.

Anyway, I still think the line of Elrond in particular should be able to appreciate the race of Men given the choice that they were given to choose. And I think it is true, since overall it would be hard to imagine a better supporter of the Dunadan over thousands of years than Elrond...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

So I wonder if this isn't Tolkien supporting the lowly mortals here, perhaps showing that the High Elves were a bit prone to overestimating their own value??

Speculating that Elves may have been somewhat prone to thinking highly of themselves is rather like postulating that the Pope may be of Catholic persuasion, isn't it? Take another resident of Imadris, one Lindir:

What!' cried Bilbo. 'You can't tell which parts were mine, and which were the Dúnadan's?'
'It is not easy for us to tell the difference between two mortals' said the Elf.
'Nonsense, Lindir,' snorted Bilbo. 'If you can't distinguish between a Man and a Hobbit, your judgement is poorer than I imagined. They're as different as peas and apples.'
'Maybe. To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different,' laughed Lindir. `Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We have other business.'

However much it may have been said in jest, this seems to me to be incredibly rude and dismissive, if not downright racist.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Speculating that Elves may have been somewhat prone to thinking highly of themselves is rather like postulating that the Pope may be of Catholic persuasion, isn't it? Take another resident of Imadris, one Lindir:

However much it may have been said in jest, this seems to me to be incredibly rude and dismissive, if not downright racist.

I disagree.

Is it racist not to be intrested in other races/nations/ethnic groups? Not per se.

Would you be able to tell one sheep from another unless you actually spend time studying them? I couldn't and therefor the words of Lindir seems to be meerly truthful.

For a conservative, International Socialists and International Marxist Tendency might seem alike, but to some socialists they seem like night and day.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I disagree.

Is it racist not to be intrested in other races/nations/ethnic groups? Not per se.

Would you be able to tell one sheep from another unless you actually spend time studying them? I couldn't and therefor the words of Lindir seems to be meerly truthful.

For a conservative, International Socialists and International Marxist Tendency might seem alike, but to some socialists they seem like night and day.

That's my leaning also.
I think Lindir's words (and Gildor's similar speech to Frodo) were more an admission of the inability of the Elves ultimately to understand mortals, just as Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits recognised the Elves to be a 'breed apart' due to their immortality.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Is it racist not to be intrested in other races/nations/ethnic groups?

I think that it can be, particularly in the terms in which it is expressed by Lindir. Not only is he is disinterested in mortals, but he admits to being unable to tell them apart. The suggestion, to my mind, is that he considers himself, as an Elf, superior to mortals. They are not worth getting to know. Heck, they are not even worth the bother of spending time to understand their differences. And surely, when a member of one race regards himself as superior to another race as a direct result of the difference between the two races, that is the very definition of racism.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think Lindir's words (and Gildor's similar speech to Frodo) were more an admission of the inability of the Elves ultimately to understand mortals

That may well be true of Gildor (and I am by no means suggesting that all Elves were racist), but I think that Lindir goes further. He is not just saying that he does not understand mortals. He is saying that he does not consider them worth understanding. He has 'other business' which is obviously far more pressing.

Originally Posted by Rune

For a conservative, International Socialists and International Marxist Tendency might seem alike, but to some socialists they seem like night and day.

For a conservative, Internationalist Socialists and International Marxist Tendency are both sorely misguided, just in slightly different ways ...