What do the High Elves really think of Men?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Speculating that Elves may have been somewhat prone to thinking highly of themselves is rather like postulating that the Pope may be of Catholic persuasion, isn't it? Take another resident of Imadris, one Lindir:

However much it may have been said in jest, this seems to me to be incredibly rude and dismissive, if not downright racist.

I disagree.

Is it racist not to be intrested in other races/nations/ethnic groups? Not per se.

Would you be able to tell one sheep from another unless you actually spend time studying them? I couldn't and therefor the words of Lindir seems to be meerly truthful.

For a conservative, International Socialists and International Marxist Tendency might seem alike, but to some socialists they seem like night and day.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I disagree.

Is it racist not to be intrested in other races/nations/ethnic groups? Not per se.

Would you be able to tell one sheep from another unless you actually spend time studying them? I couldn't and therefor the words of Lindir seems to be meerly truthful.

For a conservative, International Socialists and International Marxist Tendency might seem alike, but to some socialists they seem like night and day.

That's my leaning also.
I think Lindir's words (and Gildor's similar speech to Frodo) were more an admission of the inability of the Elves ultimately to understand mortals, just as Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits recognised the Elves to be a 'breed apart' due to their immortality.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Is it racist not to be intrested in other races/nations/ethnic groups?

I think that it can be, particularly in the terms in which it is expressed by Lindir. Not only is he is disinterested in mortals, but he admits to being unable to tell them apart. The suggestion, to my mind, is that he considers himself, as an Elf, superior to mortals. They are not worth getting to know. Heck, they are not even worth the bother of spending time to understand their differences. And surely, when a member of one race regards himself as superior to another race as a direct result of the difference between the two races, that is the very definition of racism.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think Lindir's words (and Gildor's similar speech to Frodo) were more an admission of the inability of the Elves ultimately to understand mortals

That may well be true of Gildor (and I am by no means suggesting that all Elves were racist), but I think that Lindir goes further. He is not just saying that he does not understand mortals. He is saying that he does not consider them worth understanding. He has 'other business' which is obviously far more pressing.

Originally Posted by Rune

For a conservative, International Socialists and International Marxist Tendency might seem alike, but to some socialists they seem like night and day.

For a conservative, Internationalist Socialists and International Marxist Tendency are both sorely misguided, just in slightly different ways ...

[Loslote]

Also, just by looking at some of the names the Eldar give to the Edain: Firimar, the sickly ones, comes readily to mind; also the Atani, the Second People. Yes, Atani describes a true aspect of Men, but Firimar doesn't seem to be entirely necessary as a descriptive name.

I think the Eldar naturally felt superior. Their attitude towards the dwarves, for example, was almost always condescending and arrogant. Celeborn disliked them on first sight, going so far as to refuse to pass through Khazad-dum in one version of The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. It does seem natural that this discrimination should apply to Edain as well.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Also, just by looking at some of the names the Eldar give to the Edain: Firimar, the sickly ones, comes readily to mind; also the Atani, the Second People. Yes, Atani describes a true aspect of Men, but Firimar doesn't seem to be entirely necessary as a descriptive name.

I think the Eldar naturally felt superior. Their attitude towards the dwarves, for example, was almost always condescending and arrogant. Celeborn disliked them on first sight, going so far as to refuse to pass through Khazad-dum in one version of The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. It does seem natural that this discrimination should apply to Edain as well.

Not that I want to defend Celeborn all that much, but at the time of the writing of the LOTR, I believe that Celeborn had been present at the sack of Doriath (later this seems to have changed, with Celeborn perhaps crossing over the mountains before the end of the First Age). As I believe Tolkien himself pointed out in the Unfinished Tales, the Dwarves that populated Khazad-dum had nothing to do with the sack of Doriath, but this could be the explanation for Celeborn's hostility (rightly or wrong, which evidently he had not completely forgotten by the end of the Third Age).

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Not that I want to defend Celeborn all that much, but at the time of the writing of the LOTR, I believe that Celeborn had been present at the sack of Doriath (later this seems to have changed, with Celeborn perhaps crossing over the mountains before the end of the First Age). As I believe Tolkien himself pointed out in the Unfinished Tales, the Dwarves that populated Khazad-dum had nothing to do with the sack of Doriath, but this could be the explanation for Celeborn's hostility (rightly or wrong, which evidently he had not completely forgotten by the end of the Third Age).

Point taken. However, Celeborn was not an isolated case, nor was the sack of Doriath the only cause of Elvish-Dwarven hostility. Eol was considered strange for his love of Dwarves. Most of the Sons of Feanor, if not all, disliked the Dwarves, considering them "unlovely". The Dwarves never liked the Eldar for that reason - they thought them arrogant and rightly believed that the Eldar treated them contemptuously.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Point taken. However, Celeborn was not an isolated case, nor was the sack of Doriath the only cause of Elvish-Dwarven hostility. Eol was considered strange for his love of Dwarves. Most of the Sons of Feanor, if not all, disliked the Dwarves, considering them "unlovely". The Dwarves never liked the Eldar for that reason - they thought them arrogant and rightly believed that the Eldar treated them contemptuously.

Certainly many Elves, especially Avari and Sindar, had no kind words for Dwarves and did not welcome them. The Noldor though, at least, had some things in common with them, and saw value in befriending them. Both they and the Dwarves shared reverence for Aulë, and a love for crafts of their own making.
The Noldor of Eregion appear to have had quite a friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, with profit to both sides.