Robbing the Cradle

[Galin]

Originally Posted by skip spence

(...) Also, didn't Galadriel (according to UT) live in Lindon for most of the Third Age? Arwen probably came to visit there too, and crossing Eriador was surely not without its risks. But like I said, it's futile really discussing Arwen's life and personality since we know next to nothing about it.

Not for most of the Third Age I would say, but in my opinion Tolkien had replaced Belfalas with Lindon, so (if so) they were arguably in Lindon at the beginning of the Third Age before Galadriel 'became filled with foreboding' (and so forth, as already posted above).

This would fit nicely with Celeborn's fief in Harlindon too.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Galin

Not for most of the Third Age I would say, but in my opinion Tolkien had replaced Belfalas with Lindon, so (if so) they were arguably in Lindon at the beginning of the Third Age before Galadriel 'became filled with foreboding' (and so forth, as already posted above).

This would fit nicely with Celeborn's fief in Harlindon too.

I don't recall anything about Galadriel living in Lindon in the 3rd Age. I see in the UT the reference to Appendix B of LOTR where it is stated that Celeborn lived for a while in Lindon, but nothing about the Third Age. Later in the Unfinished Tales we see another version, in which after the rejection of the offer to return to the Undying Lands, Galadriel and Celeborn cross over the mountains into Eriador, living near Lake Evendim. This is in the Second Age. Later they make their way to Eregion and eventually to Lothlorien...

[Galin]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

I don't recall anything about Galadriel living in Lindon in the 3rd Age. I see in the UT the reference to Appendix B of LOTR where it is stated that Celeborn lived for a while in Lindon, but nothing about the Third Age.

The idea is based on a strand at least, a short text published in Unfinished Tales and noted by Christopher Tolkien in his commentary to Amroth and Nimrodel (itself dated 1969 or later). According to this account, when Sauron withdrew to Mordor Celeborn (who had himself gone to Lórien at first) 'rejoined Galadriel in Lindon'. A contemporary writing is variant from this in that both Celeborn and Galadriel went to Lórien, but in this brief alternative there is no mention of where they went after Sauron withdrew and was concerned with conquest in the East.

Thus, to my mind anyway, the 'latest' mention of any destination at this time appears to be Lindon; and Tolkien had also written ('in a note in unpublished material' according to note two of The History of Galadriel and Celeborn) the detail of Celeborn's rule in Harlindon, as well as connecting Celeborn more to Lindon (although admittedly vaguely) in the revised Lord of the Rings of the 1960s.

Later in the Unfinished Tales we see another version, in which after the rejection of the offer to return to the Undying Lands, Galadriel and Celeborn cross over the mountains into Eriador, living near Lake Evendim. This is in the Second Age. Later they make their way to Eregion and eventually to Lothlorien...

You likely mean 'later' in the book, but I'll add that this version is not later than the statement regarding Lindon in Appendix B. This account is from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn which appears to predate the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, and also appears to contain a number of ideas that (IMO) were revised.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Galin

The idea is based on a strand at least, a short text published in Unfinished Tales and noted by Christopher Tolkien in his commentary to Amroth and Nimrodel (itself dated 1969 or later). According to this account, when Sauron withdrew to Mordor Celeborn (who had himself gone to Lórien at first) 'rejoined Galadriel in Lindon'. A contemporary writing is variant from this in that both Celeborn and Galadriel went to Lórien, but in this brief alternative there is no mention of where they went after Sauron withdrew and was concerned with conquest in the East.

Thus, to my mind anyway, the 'latest' mention of any destination at this time appears to be Lindon; and Tolkien had also written ('in a note in unpublished material' according to note two of The History of Galadriel and Celeborn) the detail of Celeborn's rule in Harlindon, as well as connecting Celeborn more to Lindon (although admittedly vaguely) in the revised Lord of the Rings of the 1960s.



You likely mean 'later' in the book, but I'll add that this version is not later than the statement regarding Lindon in Appendix B. This account is from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn which appears to predate the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, and also appears to contain a number of ideas that (IMO) were revised.

But I read this in the Unfinished Tales last night. Somewhere I saw that some of Tolkien's comments on Galadriel came in 1967, shortly before he died. This was part of what I read last night (I didn't make it to the Amroth section), so I am not sure that Amroth is latest. I don't have my copy of the book(s) here, but will check again tonight.

Anyway, if you read the Unfinished Tales Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, there are abundant references to Celeborn having left Lindon in the 2nd century of the Second Age, and 1) either moving to Eriador, as I mentioned above, or 2) going to Eregion and/or Lothlorien. So the question becomes which of these comments is the latest from Tolkien...

[Galin]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

But I read this in the Unfinished Tales last night. Somewhere I saw that some of Tolkien's comments on Galadriel came in 1967, shortly before he died. This was part of what I read last night (I didn't make it to the Amroth section), so I am not sure that Amroth is latest. I don't have my copy of the book(s) here, but will check again tonight.

There are some late Galadriel texts, yes, but nothing in them (that I remember at the moment anyway) that contradicts a return to Lindon sometime after the fall of Eregion. Concerning Celeborn And Galadriel is not thought to be a late 60s text -- and is: 'a short and hasty outline, very roughly composed' incidentally.

Anyway, if you read the Unfinished Tales Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, there are abundant references to Celeborn having left Lindon in the 2nd century of the Second Age, and 1) either moving to Eriador, as I mentioned above, or 2) going to Eregion and/or Lothlorien. So the question becomes which of these comments is the latest from Tolkien...'

OK, for clarity perhaps, I'm proposing that Celeborn and Galadriel left Lindon (as you note) for Eregion, and ended up back in Lindon according to the text I noted above (instead of Belfalas). For myself, I also factor in what Tolkien himself published, giving this great weight, and The Road Goes Ever On is not only later than Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn but was also published by JRRT himself.

'She passed over the mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion.' RGEO

Now granted, this may be a very shortened account that simply doesn't mention any sojourn about Lake Nenuial -- or on the other hand perhaps this trip to Evendim was abandoned (as I tend to lean). In the older text it is noted that Amroth was born to Galadriel at this time near Nenuial, but later Tolkien revised the notion that Amroth was Galadriel's son, in any case.

[CSteefel]

Yes, I see now the passage about joining Gil-Galad in Lindon, which does seem to be the last (1969).

There seem to be 3-4 versions of the Galadriel and Celeborn story--I personally like the version in which they hung out in Nenuial in the Second Age. But also interesting is the late addition in the Unfinished Tales about the Third Age and the "long journeys of enquiry in Rhovanion, from Gondor and the borders of Mordor to Thranduil in the north...", after which "Celeborn and Galadriel passed over the mountains to Imladris, and there dwelt for many years..."

But I note in the Unfinished Tales that

To Lorien Celeborn and Galadriel returned twice before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age; and in the Third Age, awhen the shadow of Sauron's recovery arose, they dwelt there again for a long time.

There is specific mention in 1980 of the Third Age, where

it was not until the disaster in Moria, when by means beyond the foresight of Galadriel Sauron's power actually crossed the Anduin and Lorien was in great peril...

which makes an interesting link between the Balrog (Durin's Bane) and Sauron (or is it just that Sauron's orcs now begin to populate Moria??). In this regard, I am still a little surprised that Galadriel did not know what Durin's Bane actually was...