A Measure of Success

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

For me a large part of the issues with the RPGs is that the ones that we do have going take up so much time and energy from the players that they last far longer than the original "expected time commitment."

Me too. And I'm the one CAUSING the protracted play... can't bring myself to end it. Love the characters too much.... That said, I doubt I'd start another one. Or even play in another one, these days; even a three-monther in the Shire. Crazy busy with family & work.

But oh, how I miss the better games. They were more than games. It's like writing a fanfic, and finally ending it and essentially going into mourning or grieving. (Who, me???) And it's also the characters (as well as the team writers) that I miss.

[Durelin]

I do miss the days when there were several RPGs moving along at the same time - certainly not always as quickly as people would like and often going beyond the set time-span, but not lasting for a year...or two...or three as they are now.

But that being said, I was always slow with RPGs, and didn't do well with the pressure of others depending on me for the story to keep moving. And I must say that the reason the Downs is the only place I RP anymore (and is the only place I've 'consistently' RPed), is because I am one of those people who can work at that pace because, really, I can't fully commit to a project even for a few weeks (partially because I do have to fully commit to projects like schoolwork), even though I try.

The 'lack' of writers is probably in part because there aren't the same number of games being started up to be a part of. Because games aren't good at ending. But...do you force a game along, or do you let it become whatever the writers make it into? Really, if you look at some of the finished games, some of them were forced along to meet (or at least somewhat meet) their deadlines. Did that make them bad? No, but they certainly could have turned out differently, even if they never finished. If you know what I mean.

I've plotted many a new game. I love starting them (keeping up with them is another matter entirely, of course...). I'm thinking of doing a game over January that I will (hahaha) force myself to keep short. Riiiiight.

[Durelin]

I am embarrassed to post on here for at least two reasons...one, that at my age (or is that at every age?) I look back year to year and think 'what was I thinking?' Two...because I am the worst at keeping my commitments in (parts of) the RPing realm of the Downs. (I just got back from yet another disappearance and here I am posting this stuff)

But I'm going to anyway...as you've noticed...

RP activity on the Downs...revisited.

I know it's not my place to suggest major changes to the RP sections here, but...I'm feeling like there is a need for it if they are going to survive/serve a purpose.

How to make the RP forums easier for newcomers to get into, how to make them appear more active and more welcoming, how to reignite interest, how to keep things faster paced... Anything anyone would like to discuss?

Also I miss our RP mods soooo much.

[Snowdog]

Having only been in on creating and starting one RP story here on Barrow Downs (Lingering Darkness in the Shire - had to quit due to real life issues), I have to say I found it hard to open up with a free-flowing creativity. It seemed to be more 'RP story construction' than 'RP story creation'. The supposed tale 'time limit' and requests for re-edits of posts, moderator re-edits of posts, and PM questions over some minor details did little to encourage my creativity, and it actually felt more like work to write instead of enjoyment. Its likely why I didn't re-enter the RP realm here after I managed to get life sorted and was able to spend more time online.

That said..I'm full of ideas on Tolkien Middle Earth RP story outlines and settings, and even have some few post Ringwar mash-ups, but I again have to say I'm not really comfortable writing RP here on the Barrow Downs.

Just my 2¢

Edit: A month later and I guess nobody wants to, or is here to discuss this. Oh well.

[Durelin]

I agree with you, Snowdog. You find yourself bogged down with all the planning and details, and of course by all of the expectations. For some time now RPing here has been about meeting certain expectations, performing in a certain way. It does end up feeling like work.

I spent a lot of time here and am very fond of the Downs but there's a reason I found it hard time and again to keep up with RPs, to find inspiration to write here, to return to RPs after being busy or losing inspiration for a time... I used to stress out about RPs all the time!

I appreciate RPing that is 'realistic' within the world (to a degree); I appreciate good writing...I think rules are necessary, but there is such thing as over-structuring. And what develops on any site/forum is a certain mindset or style. Am I to say a certain mindset or style is wrong or bad? No, but I may or may not enjoy it.

And what do I matter? I don't. Not everyone is going to enjoy/agree with what rules, style, whatever you come up with. But the RP sections here have been struggling for some time now, so I thought it might be a good time for opinions to be discussed (rather than me just posting a complaint that you're not doing things how I want you to).

[Mithadan]

Hmmm. Durelin (and anyone else who might be following along or interested), the "conditions" that led us to create the present RPG structure do not currently exist. The whole thing began when someone spontaneously started a virtual party. It was creative, well-received, and, by and large, everyone was pretty well-behaved. Soon a few odd and end RPGs were started in the Barrow-Downs announcements forum and, after interest seemed to develop, we opened a new RPG forum, as an experiment. We admins generally ignored that forum (I was the only one that RPed with any frequency).

When the movies hit, the RPG forum exploded. Games were started, lasted ten posts, and were abandoned. Others went on forever, effectively creating cliques that excluded new players. People who could barely string five sentences together were randomly butting into games run by more advanced RPers. Members demanded access to games when no new ones were starting. People began misbehaving, fighting, etc. RPGs started that had absolutely nothing to do with Tolkien. We got more complaints from that forum (at that time) than any other. Something had to change (and banning RPGS was definitely considered).

We invited a group of members to caucus and, after a lot of debate, came up with the current system. The idea was mutliple levels for different skills. Prove yourself and you graduate to the next level. Higher levels have less restrictions. Games have to be based upon a definite Tolkien-based plot or theme with a definable end (no more never ending stories). We decided that Moderators were needed to ensure good behavior, help avoid fights, and act as mentors for newbies. It worked pretty good -- at least the chaos was over and it was better than no RPGs at all.

ANYWAY. The movies are years behind us (for now) and things are quiet again. If there is sufficient interest and someone can come up with concrete suggeations, I'd be willing to speak with the other Admins and what mods remain (if I can get anyone's attention) to discuss changes. No promises.

Durelin the floor is yours. Let's hear it...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Me. Once upon a time, I was an active RPGer. I've taken part in Shire games (Prisoner of Númenor, Assigned to Mordor (ATM), Island of Sorrow) and I ran Assigned to Mordor II (ATM 2); and I've taken part in Rohan settlements (I was a frequent participant in The White Horse Inn, one of the founding folks of the Eorling Mead Hall, and a regular of the Scarburg Mead Hall (where characters I created are still Very Important, though they've been inherited by others), and I took part in most or all offshoots thereof); and for a time I was an active writer in Gondor's Tapestry of Dreams.

I still lurk as a non-participatory consulting gossip. RPGers with questions shoot me PMs or pounce on me on Facebook, and I like that level of participation: I get to help out, but I don't have to take responsibility.

Now that I've spewed my credentials, here is how I read the situation:

There is one basic Very Big Problem that keeps people from committing to anything:

RPGs take too long.

This is caused in part by (and in return, causes) the secondary Very Big Problem:

Players are unreliable.

Obviously the constraints of everyday life are going to go a long way to determining how often and how much any one writer can contribute, but when most RPGs begin with maybe ten writers, and have an expected time line of two months, and then two years later you've got two writers typing furiously, trying to just finish the stupid story so that they can have some mental closure even though it's turned into a chore instead of anything fun... That's unpleasant.

In all honesty, can we really expect anybody to commit to an ungodly number of years to finish a project?

I think one way to revitalize the RPG forum is to impose a stricter expectation that games will not go on into eternity unless (like the Inns) they are designed to do so. If you say your game is going to be done by December, by Eru it needs to be completed by Thanksgiving.

I submit that this would provide a more manageable expectation. You can't expect players to maintain enthusiasm for a story with no direction or end point. That's like expecting an audience to remain cognizant through a full showing of the movie Australia.

While subplots are excellent (and typically helpful when it comes to adding nuance and complexity to a story arc), a STORY is:

-a series of related events with a clear beginning, middle, and end, with a defining moment which causes a significant change in the character or characters.

If we can focus (for a time anyway) on simplifying each RPG into a cohesive story with one solid, identifiable plot line, perhaps outlined with specific plot points as achievable milestones that the writers work actively toward, I think we can get writers to commit. I'm tempted to run a clearly outlined game to test this theory. I have one in mind, in any case. But that's not entirely relevant.

Dury? I know I swiped your podium... take it back and give us a rousing speech?

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Durelin

I agree with you, Snowdog. You find yourself bogged down with all the planning and details, and of course by all of the expectations. For some time now RPing here has been about meeting certain expectations, performing in a certain way. It does end up feeling like work.

Thanks Durelin for responding to me. A page or so of discussion since you did. I guess it takes the right person saying something here to get a discussion about RP going. Reading through it all and though there are plenty of good opinions, I somehow don’t see too much changing. Maybe if things get freed up a bit control-wise I may consider Barrow Downs as host of one of my RPs I’ve outlined.

[Mithadan]

Hmmm. Quite an active thread we have here...

I'm not going to weigh in just yet. I have some ideas and suggestions, but I'd first like to focus and sharpen this discussion. I hear a lot of different and not necessarily uniform opinions about what's wrong (and not a lot of agreement about what's right). Last time a discussion like this was held here it was done by invitation only in a private forum. This time, I'd rather be very open about things. Ironically, some of the comments I hear now are the same as I heard back then: elitist; too structured; etc. And like last time the favorable comments are often about the same things some people complain about.

I happen to agree with Snowdog (NOOO, not that!). Must be an age thing. Too much talk about what's good and what's bad, which is not to say that this dialogue hasn't been valuable. But it's time for you all to do my job for me. No egos, no fighting, but tell me what you would like to see done!

*Mithadan looks over his shoulder at the oliphant sitting in the corner -- strange, no one else seems to see it...

[Firefoot]

I guess I don't see why there can't be room for both the types of games that Durelin and Snowdog are describing vs the type that Fea outlined. The two types are likely to attract different players (that's kinda obvious, I know), but personally I like both sorts...

The issues that need to be addressed would be: in a more free-form game, how do you make sure it doesn't wend on for years and years so that the players just slowly drop out due to RL constraints? And in a more structured game, how do you give the players some ownership in it so they don't feel like they're just going through the motions of putting a story together?

I think the key is to make the expectations clear at the beginning. If you want it not to have a set plot and you want for people to feel free to introduce twists as they desire, that ought to be explained up front. And if there's a plan for the story, that should be said upfront as well.

Personally, I don't see why all of this has to be mutually exclusive. I've always really enjoyed RP'ing at the Downs, and having been in a rather wide variety of game types and complexities I think there are things to be enjoyed about all of them.

Maybe I should also mention that I've never RP'ed anywhere else so I don't really have a feel for other ways that it can work.

I guess what might better help me conceptualize all this is this: Snowdog, if you don't mind me putting you on the spot, would you be willing to explain more concretely what it is you'd like to do and how it doesn't fit the Downs? How do you see it playing out? Which part(s) is(are) too controlling?