A Measure of Success

[Durelin]

I agree with you, Snowdog. You find yourself bogged down with all the planning and details, and of course by all of the expectations. For some time now RPing here has been about meeting certain expectations, performing in a certain way. It does end up feeling like work.

I spent a lot of time here and am very fond of the Downs but there's a reason I found it hard time and again to keep up with RPs, to find inspiration to write here, to return to RPs after being busy or losing inspiration for a time... I used to stress out about RPs all the time!

I appreciate RPing that is 'realistic' within the world (to a degree); I appreciate good writing...I think rules are necessary, but there is such thing as over-structuring. And what develops on any site/forum is a certain mindset or style. Am I to say a certain mindset or style is wrong or bad? No, but I may or may not enjoy it.

And what do I matter? I don't. Not everyone is going to enjoy/agree with what rules, style, whatever you come up with. But the RP sections here have been struggling for some time now, so I thought it might be a good time for opinions to be discussed (rather than me just posting a complaint that you're not doing things how I want you to).

[Mithadan]

Hmmm. Durelin (and anyone else who might be following along or interested), the "conditions" that led us to create the present RPG structure do not currently exist. The whole thing began when someone spontaneously started a virtual party. It was creative, well-received, and, by and large, everyone was pretty well-behaved. Soon a few odd and end RPGs were started in the Barrow-Downs announcements forum and, after interest seemed to develop, we opened a new RPG forum, as an experiment. We admins generally ignored that forum (I was the only one that RPed with any frequency).

When the movies hit, the RPG forum exploded. Games were started, lasted ten posts, and were abandoned. Others went on forever, effectively creating cliques that excluded new players. People who could barely string five sentences together were randomly butting into games run by more advanced RPers. Members demanded access to games when no new ones were starting. People began misbehaving, fighting, etc. RPGs started that had absolutely nothing to do with Tolkien. We got more complaints from that forum (at that time) than any other. Something had to change (and banning RPGS was definitely considered).

We invited a group of members to caucus and, after a lot of debate, came up with the current system. The idea was mutliple levels for different skills. Prove yourself and you graduate to the next level. Higher levels have less restrictions. Games have to be based upon a definite Tolkien-based plot or theme with a definable end (no more never ending stories). We decided that Moderators were needed to ensure good behavior, help avoid fights, and act as mentors for newbies. It worked pretty good -- at least the chaos was over and it was better than no RPGs at all.

ANYWAY. The movies are years behind us (for now) and things are quiet again. If there is sufficient interest and someone can come up with concrete suggeations, I'd be willing to speak with the other Admins and what mods remain (if I can get anyone's attention) to discuss changes. No promises.

Durelin the floor is yours. Let's hear it...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Me. Once upon a time, I was an active RPGer. I've taken part in Shire games (Prisoner of Númenor, Assigned to Mordor (ATM), Island of Sorrow) and I ran Assigned to Mordor II (ATM 2); and I've taken part in Rohan settlements (I was a frequent participant in The White Horse Inn, one of the founding folks of the Eorling Mead Hall, and a regular of the Scarburg Mead Hall (where characters I created are still Very Important, though they've been inherited by others), and I took part in most or all offshoots thereof); and for a time I was an active writer in Gondor's Tapestry of Dreams.

I still lurk as a non-participatory consulting gossip. RPGers with questions shoot me PMs or pounce on me on Facebook, and I like that level of participation: I get to help out, but I don't have to take responsibility.

Now that I've spewed my credentials, here is how I read the situation:

There is one basic Very Big Problem that keeps people from committing to anything:

RPGs take too long.

This is caused in part by (and in return, causes) the secondary Very Big Problem:

Players are unreliable.

Obviously the constraints of everyday life are going to go a long way to determining how often and how much any one writer can contribute, but when most RPGs begin with maybe ten writers, and have an expected time line of two months, and then two years later you've got two writers typing furiously, trying to just finish the stupid story so that they can have some mental closure even though it's turned into a chore instead of anything fun... That's unpleasant.

In all honesty, can we really expect anybody to commit to an ungodly number of years to finish a project?

I think one way to revitalize the RPG forum is to impose a stricter expectation that games will not go on into eternity unless (like the Inns) they are designed to do so. If you say your game is going to be done by December, by Eru it needs to be completed by Thanksgiving.

I submit that this would provide a more manageable expectation. You can't expect players to maintain enthusiasm for a story with no direction or end point. That's like expecting an audience to remain cognizant through a full showing of the movie Australia.

While subplots are excellent (and typically helpful when it comes to adding nuance and complexity to a story arc), a STORY is:

-a series of related events with a clear beginning, middle, and end, with a defining moment which causes a significant change in the character or characters.

If we can focus (for a time anyway) on simplifying each RPG into a cohesive story with one solid, identifiable plot line, perhaps outlined with specific plot points as achievable milestones that the writers work actively toward, I think we can get writers to commit. I'm tempted to run a clearly outlined game to test this theory. I have one in mind, in any case. But that's not entirely relevant.

Dury? I know I swiped your podium... take it back and give us a rousing speech?

[Mithadan]

Thanks Feanor. Other comments? Durelin? We need more than 2 people expressing interest to even begin thinking about this.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Thanks Feanor. Other comments? Durelin? We need more than 2 people expressing interest to even begin thinking about this.

For the record, Counselor, you have 3 Downers commenting here, not 2, although I suppose you could say one expressed disinterest.

[Mithadan]

Objection overruled. Proceed.

[Mnemosyne]

As someone who got here "too late" to be involved in much of anything, but who would really love to do some concrete RPs, I hope you don't mind my ducking in.

First of all, what Fea said. The RPs that never end have to go, because the longer an RPG lasts, the more likely people's RL circumstances are going to change and they're going to have to drop out of the game. This, in itself, isn't a problem per se--this happens in Werewolf all the time. It's a problem of critical mass. Even if not everyone can be playing at one time, enough people need to be to keep the plot moving forward. This is more complicated in an RP situation as well, because if you have three players who have the time and desire to post, but they're all playing minor characters who don't really interact with one another, it's going to be harder to keep the ball rolling.

One way around this situation (and it's not a very desirable one) is shared characters, or at least understudies. In March there was a month-long RP challenge thing for Back-to-Middle-Earth Month, and because I knew my commitment time would be spotty, I shared a character with another author. We emailed one another to see who would post next, depending on our time and commitments, and luckily my really busy/not feeling inspired times were all times when she had the time and energy to post for him--and vice versa. Because I have a number of characters who are much closer to me, that I wouldn't share, I understand if that feels weird, but we created the character together with the expectation that we would have slightly different ideas of what we wanted to do with him, and we ran with it. Certainly character quality goes down in this situation, but I would prefer "okay" posts to no posts at all.

In any case I think that the RP fora need to be leaner and meaner. Gondor has long been naught but a dusty mathom room, and that breaks my heart. I don't know whether that means we should consolidate all of our playing into one forum, though, or keep Rohan and the Shire separate. The elitist in me wants to keep the two separate, because I really do feel that the net writing quality in the two is different, but if we want to jump-start this thing we may need all the help we can get.

So, 1). Definitely have shorter games. That means not only having a deadline, but also having a cleaner plot. I'd love to see some two-week RPs (okay, we can make them longer) that cover the plot equivalent of one chapter in LotR. If the players can dedicate another two weeks to the plot, move another chapter along; if not, put it on hold. There's nothing saying you can't keep the same characters, setting, and big plot between two RPs, and I think a lot of people would be happier with ending an RP on a concrete episodic note than trying to drag it out to the Grand Finish. Keep the subplots to a minimum.

1). will mean having a dedicated core of 3 or so players who don't mind moving the plot along and not waiting for the others to post. Players should be familiar enough with each other's characters that they can carry them with the party even if the writer isn't there to post, trying to take the middle-road between forgetting them and god-modding. Obviously the RP founder should be one of these, and no one should found an RP if he or she won't have the time and energy to see it through. Smaller chunks of time should make predicting that easier.

The other thing is, once and whenever we settle on RP reforms, we need to test them out immediately and prove that they work. If they do, and if we get enough people who are willing to play to keep them running, then we can add back in some of the longer timelines and more complicated subplots.

Well, those are my thoughts, and I'm more than happy to admit that I don't have nearly enough experience in these matters to know whether they'll be much good. But I do want to see the RPs get some life in them again, and see a finished RPG in my Downsian lifetime!

[Durelin]

I doubt this is going to fit with the Downs overall style...but here goes...

I guess I'll just toss out possibilities. But basically what I think is necessary is a more open field. Certainly you have rules. Certainly you guide people to RPing canonically (which includes not messing around with canons, which I have been guilty of myself in the past :x). But...the style of, here is a game project. Someone has to run it. You have your plot set out, perhaps even in great detail. You need a certain number of players. Those players create characters that specifically fit in your plot and will play out your plot. They may or may not affect the plot at all. It puts a lot on the person running the game, and it takes a lot away from the players. When a game owner disappears for a time, the players are lost. When you lose a player or two, the game can be derailed if they played important characters.

I understand (though I did not witness) the change from an open RPing forum to a very firmly structured system. If you want to encourage a certain 'level' of RPing, you have to have certain rules. But I think it went too far. I think that it went too far into the realm of elitism. (A natural result of having different 'tiers' of RPing, for one thing.) And it's just clunky.

So, ideas I'll just toss out there. I'm trying to fit what I've seen work for RPing into the setting of the Downs discussion forum.

Return to one open RP forum. Maybe keep an inn, maybe not. Keep the same basic rules/expectations of what a 'post' is. Make it clear that no one is to RP any canon characters or involve them (except perhaps a passing mention or something) in their RPs. (This rule will help keep players from starting plots that turn into crazy fan-fic.)

Then let anyone start an RP -- let that be a RP with a plot, or an open-ended RP. Maybe have a separate 'RP Discussion' forum in which people can use to plot RPs or look for other RPers. Maybe someone doesn't want to run a specific storyline, but is interested in collaborating with just one, maybe two other people on some RPing and see where it goes. (They choose a setting, figure out how the characters meet up, and then they're off to doing things.)

Those who are looking for a specific 'level' of RP can pick and choose who they RP with, as they wish. Those who aren't looking to dedicate themselves to someone's plot can do something of a smaller scale.

And what about RPs 'ending' or not? Well, that's up to the players. If they don't ever reach an end, they don't reach an end. Periodically remove threads that have not been posted on in however long, and leave it at that. If the players want to return to a thread that has been removed, it's up to them to restart it.

And then there's the question of character bios... You can continue with the current method and have people post character bios to the discussion threads in which they plot their RPs. If you keep an inn (or multiple inns, if desired, to have inns in various areas of ME), you can continue a list of characters there. Players can choose whether they want to use a character just for a specific plot, or if they want to play a character throughout different plots. They can either re-post their bios for whatever they're involved in, or they can refer people to the bio posted elsewhere (and whoever's running the plot can ask them to re-post their bio, or can ask them to make a new character).

A lot of RPs have an 'application process' you do in order to play. That only works in a certain type of RP. Here you could continue to use the idea that players have to post in the inn first, if you wanted some kind of application process. They'd have to create a character that would be accepted to the inn thread, and that would be their 'test.' But that's a lot of work for whoever is moderating/running the inn thread.

Basically...loosen things up a bit. Allow for more spontaneity, which is not inherently bad. Reduce the amount of paperwork, the procedures. Let players feel less like they're being graded. Yes, this will take moderating, but not as much on the back end. It will be about stepping in when necessary rather than having to handle everything from the start.

And once you have a RPing section established, it becomes clear what kind of RPing takes place there. So, if you have an established group of players in your RP section, everyone who joins is going to see how they RP, what the protocols are, etc., and they are going to realize that they have to follow those protocols if they are to 'fit in.' So if you're afraid of a bonanza of warrior-princesses and vampires and werewolves (Sauron's buds, ya know)...that's not going to take root if you have RPs going on that are more 'realistic' to the setting/canon and RPers who aren't at all interested in those things. It's very hard to establish that from the get-go, but since the RP sections were established and reestablished years ago...hopefully a lot of that will carry over?

Does having a certain 'level' of RPing make things more fun? Yes, but how do you determine that 'level' from the get-go? Encourage good writing, 'realistic' RPs, and leave it at that. There's a trend in the forum RP world that is to call yourself an 'advanced,' 'intermediate,' or 'beginner' RPer. As soon as you put labels on it, or structure your RP around supposed 'levels,' it just stops being welcoming. It takes away from the fun. It's daunting to new players, and keeps current players edgy, wondering if their posts are going to live up to the standards 'advanced' RPers. Etc.

So...that's why I think it's better to just allow a level and style of RPing to develop based on what the moderator(s) and existing players are doing.

As Mithadan pointed out...the movie-craze is long over. Those who are spending time on the interwebs talking about or RPing Middle-earth are a different breed. The dynamic has changed...I think it's safer now to open things up.

It's always a challenge to make a RP section work...and if the feeling is that an open RP section dirties the reputation of the forum, then of course there shouldn't be one. But...this is all just for fun, isn't it?

And you're probably reading this (especially as a mod or admin) thinking...you expect someone to keep up with all this? I know it seems like a lot of work. I don't know how much it will be. It all depends on the kind of players and number of players you end up with at any given time. It also depends on how tight of a rein you feel you need to have on everything. How pristine you want every thread to look. How well you feel everyone must write. How much you want to moderate 'chattiness.' So...yea, it's a lot easier to just leave things as they are, especially since there's barely any activity so not much to keep up with. And so asking the admins and mods to make changes is asking them to do work. So I understand completely if it's just not worth the time to make any changes, regardless of who suggests them.

Re Fea's suggestions: RP ending dates used to be much more strictly enforced, but I don't think that encouraged people to keep up with them. It becomes less about writing/playing the game and more about just *finishing it* somehow. Just working through the steps of the plot as quickly as you could (which often meant the game owner just pushing things ahead periodically until the set 'end' was reached). That's not fun to me, but that's just me. Anyway, having a timeline and end dates and the like just makes it feel more like work to me.

I guess one of the big underlying problems is getting new players and keeping them. I'm not sure how to do that. You can make the RP forums more welcoming, have more open opportunities for RP, but at the same time...they have to get here somehow. And a lot of people are looking for forums dedicated entirely to RP, when they're looking to RP. The age of the RP section in a discussion forum seems to be long past, as RPs now more commonly take up entire forums. So this discussion may be kind of pointless. (Random note, if you search 'middle earth forum roleplaying' on Google, BD shows up on page 3)

(I hope this is coherent. I'm battling a cold so I'm a little empty-headed.)

Thanks for reading (especially since it's ridiculously long). I am surprised to find any responses and I really appreciate your response and openness, Mithadan.


Edit: Crossed with Mnemo.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Durelin

I agree with you, Snowdog. You find yourself bogged down with all the planning and details, and of course by all of the expectations. For some time now RPing here has been about meeting certain expectations, performing in a certain way. It does end up feeling like work.

Thanks Durelin for responding to me. A page or so of discussion since you did. I guess it takes the right person saying something here to get a discussion about RP going. Reading through it all and though there are plenty of good opinions, I somehow don’t see too much changing. Maybe if things get freed up a bit control-wise I may consider Barrow Downs as host of one of my RPs I’ve outlined.

[Mithadan]

Hmmm. Quite an active thread we have here...

I'm not going to weigh in just yet. I have some ideas and suggestions, but I'd first like to focus and sharpen this discussion. I hear a lot of different and not necessarily uniform opinions about what's wrong (and not a lot of agreement about what's right). Last time a discussion like this was held here it was done by invitation only in a private forum. This time, I'd rather be very open about things. Ironically, some of the comments I hear now are the same as I heard back then: elitist; too structured; etc. And like last time the favorable comments are often about the same things some people complain about.

I happen to agree with Snowdog (NOOO, not that!). Must be an age thing. Too much talk about what's good and what's bad, which is not to say that this dialogue hasn't been valuable. But it's time for you all to do my job for me. No egos, no fighting, but tell me what you would like to see done!

*Mithadan looks over his shoulder at the oliphant sitting in the corner -- strange, no one else seems to see it...

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

*Mithadan looks over his shoulder at the oliphant sitting in the corner -- strange, no one else seems to see it...

In the words of Eowyn, I do not wish to play at riddles. Speak plainer!

As far as what we would like to see done? Well, define "see done." If the answer is "do," I think Fea at least is taking the initiative and getting a game idea up. I myself just sent a game idea off to pio that, hopefully, will take some of the ideas that have been discussed here and try to put them into action. If, however, by "see done" you mean things for the moderators, etc., to do--I don't know how much of this is a moderator solution, since the problems don't stem as much from the rules as they do from the game owners and the players. At least in my estimation.

So the best way to clean up the RPGs is to clean up ourselves first. That, at least, is the tack that I am taking. I am using this discussion to reconceptualize my idea of how RPGs should work, and trying to come up with something that will take those new ideas and test them in the field.

But if there's a problem that no one else is seeing, I'd very much like it if you just let us know what it is.

[Snowdog]

Snowdog, if you don't mind me putting you on the spot, would you be willing to explain more concretely what it is you'd like to do and how it doesn't fit the Downs? How do you see it playing out? Which part(s) is(are) too controlling?

I don’t mind at all. I would love to do this, but being its mid-afternoon here and I’m sneaking on here at work, I’ll have to gather my thoughts on it later this evening after I get home and settled in with a beer in hand.

I just became aware a couple hours ago that this discussion had finally taken off.

[Mithalwen]

Dunno - that everyone is talking about it not doing it? He may tell us if he I suppose .. what is really fascinating me at the moment though is how or rather why Crowned Pigeon whe has never actually posted has spent most of the past two days private messaging. I may have more insightful when it isn't stupid o'clock.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

*Mithadan looks over his shoulder at the oliphant sitting in the corner -- strange, no one else seems to see it...

Ooh, I know, I know! If the Barrowdowns as an institution actively encourages members to borrow aspects of Middle Earth for their own Tolkien inspired writing projects, it will inspire a lawsuit from the Estate! Am I right?

No, really. I rather doubt any of us are intentionally ignoring something that has occurred to us, since we all appear to be actively trying to pin down a prognosis and a prescription. Playing coy, Sir Mithadan, isn't really helping any of us, nor does it help dismantle the concept of Gondorian writers or moderators as elites who need not share their information or talents with the rabble.

The only thing I can think is that you lean toward saying, "If people want to play RPGs the way other websites play them, they can go to other websites." Which is akin to saying we should allow the slow demise of our own writerly frolics within the realms of this place.

[Mithalwen]

No can't be that -
http://www.tolkienestate.com/faq/p_2/

I must admit I have mixed feelings about rule making - the WW thing seemed an overreaction to an isolated problem (letting a virtual unknown quantity mod) and I can't help feeling that some people enjoy too much making rules for others. We got a whole statute book when a Denning like judgement might have sufficed. However I stand by the uncanonical or even implausible names as capitaloffences

[Mithadan]

the concept of Gondorian writers or moderators as elites who need not share their information or talents with the rabble

I've gotta be honest, I'm surprised that this is still coming up. There's really only one game running (barely) in Gondor. Otherwise its been pretty much abandoned for about 4 years. Gondor was NEVER intended to be elitist. It was supposed to be an award or honor for skill and effort. The goal was that the majority of gamers would end up in Gondor and those who weren't yet would be newcomers.

You want Gondor gone? That's an easy one. But it doesn't solve the real issues.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

You want Gondor gone? That's an easy one. But it doesn't solve the real issues.

Kind of. But not for the reasons one might think.

I find the idea of a reward for good writing/modding/playing to be laudable, but I also think that due to the slow progress of RPGs and players, it's a more or less unobtainable goal. As you said, there's only one game (kind of), and as most others have mentioned, they usually don't even go into Gondor to READ, much less hope some day to write.

I also think having the seemingly unobtainable 'best' status deters interest from the inherent quality of 'lower' games.

Can you truly claim surprise that people "still" feel left out in a system that classifies by 'new and can't be trusted to know their eyes from their elbows,' and 'still need hand holding and permission,' to 'nobody ever goes here'? In any system wherein there is a concentration of power there are going to subsequent feelings that those without it are either lazy or inherently less deserving.

And this still doesn't address the vibe of 'I know something you don't know' that you're giving off, Mithadan. If you know something of benefit to us (or even detriment), why are you keeping mum about it? What purpose does it serve to make us question the validity of all of the very solid points that have been made by anybody who clearly cares enough to be part of this discussion?

[mark12_30]

the concept of Gondorian writers or moderators as elites who need not share their information or talents with the rabble

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I've gotta be honest, I'm surprised that this is still coming up. There's really only one game running (barely) in Gondor. Otherwise its been pretty much abandoned for about 4 years. Gondor was NEVER intended to be elitist. It was supposed to be an award or honor for skill and effort. The goal was that the majority of gamers would end up in Gondor and those who weren't yet would be newcomers.

You want Gondor gone? That's an easy one. But it doesn't solve the real issues.

As the owner of that (barely running) game... I'd like to point out that we carefully recruited participants from Rohan and The Shire; the game began in The White Horse Inn, and indeed once the game left the White Horse Inn and officially began in Gondor, I was the only Gondorian in the game (except for a guest appearance by Estelyn early on.) Littlemanpoet advanced to gamestarter status in Gondor midway through the game; so did Aylwen Dreamsong.

The main requirement in that game was that the game be as canonical as possible; that exceptions to canonicity would be brought before the entire team to be resolved; if that did not resolve the issue, we would bring it before elders of the Downs and seek their opinions as t othe canonicity of the subplot involved. I am proud (of my team!) to state that this was never necessary; all who volounteered for the game were as dedicated to writing *for* Tolkien as I was. In other words, canonicity was the main requirement for the game, and all the Rohirrim and Shirelings who joined were as adamantly pro-canonical as I was. The issue never even came up, unless I am forgetting something.

However-- currently, all but lmp and I have faded from the game completely. This will be moot in about ten or twenty more posts, which is all it will take to close the tale. ( And therein lies the delay-- I don't WANT to close it, any more than I wanted The Lonely Star to close. ) But the game was not a 'closed-to-outsiders-elitist' game.

[Firefoot]

I guess I don't see why there can't be room for both the types of games that Durelin and Snowdog are describing vs the type that Fea outlined. The two types are likely to attract different players (that's kinda obvious, I know), but personally I like both sorts...

The issues that need to be addressed would be: in a more free-form game, how do you make sure it doesn't wend on for years and years so that the players just slowly drop out due to RL constraints? And in a more structured game, how do you give the players some ownership in it so they don't feel like they're just going through the motions of putting a story together?

I think the key is to make the expectations clear at the beginning. If you want it not to have a set plot and you want for people to feel free to introduce twists as they desire, that ought to be explained up front. And if there's a plan for the story, that should be said upfront as well.

Personally, I don't see why all of this has to be mutually exclusive. I've always really enjoyed RP'ing at the Downs, and having been in a rather wide variety of game types and complexities I think there are things to be enjoyed about all of them.

Maybe I should also mention that I've never RP'ed anywhere else so I don't really have a feel for other ways that it can work.

I guess what might better help me conceptualize all this is this: Snowdog, if you don't mind me putting you on the spot, would you be willing to explain more concretely what it is you'd like to do and how it doesn't fit the Downs? How do you see it playing out? Which part(s) is(are) too controlling?

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Snowdog, if you don't mind me putting you on the spot, would you be willing to explain more concretely what it is you'd like to do and how it doesn't fit the Downs? How do you see it playing out? Which part(s) is(are) too controlling?

Well... let me start off with a bit on my one and only experience participating in an RP here on Barrow Downs in what was it... 2003-4... We had a good setting and outline for an RP, and some writers that wanted to commit to it. At the time the "rules" were there had to be a time limit for the conclusion of the RP, and so that in itself put, on me anyway, pressure to develop the story, write it through, and conclude it within a certain time frame before it even really started. But I gave it a go. I got a few posts into it, and I started getting PMs about my posts and requests to edit them so they would fit someone else's concept of what the RP direction should be. The first time was a minor detail and I agreed to 'tweak' my post to accommodate. another post later, I get a Pm request to edit a whole section of my post. I didn't do it, instead told them to work around it. I don't think I continued after that, being real life was drama enough and I didn't need to try and work at writing posts that were acceptable to other writers. I never had this sort of interaction anywhere else on the net I have RP'd. Instead of a free flow of interaction, it seemed that RPs had to be "scripted" here. The whole structure of the Shire, Rohan, and Gondor and how you had to 'work your way up' added to that, along with the extensive character bios and opening setting that had to be set before you could even begin to try and write a tale. Its like I said before... an RP had to be constructed, not created. Maybe that's how an RP "GAME" (as the term so lovingly is used here) is done I guess. Its was a style I obviously didn't fit into. I'm a writer not a gamer. I thrive in the spontaneous interaction of other writers who can take what is posted and use it to carry the story forward and leave hooks for others to use in their posts, etc. I understand why the stringent rules were put into place here, and the three tier forums, etc., but carrying it to the letter, with a forum mod being what I consider, overly intrusive in structuring individual RPs by copying writer's posts and putting then in their omnibus posts seemed a bit much.

Sorry about the ramble. I doubt I will ever partake in RPs here, or even post in the inns. I have tried on occasion in the past, and my ppsts were either ignored because the didn't fit into whatever plot-line had been discussed in an OOC, or whatever reason. I have also been invited to post in the inns in Rohan and Gondor, but never could push myself to put forth the effort to do so because I had to wonder if the effort coming up with characters and posts would be worth it when I had a hard time trying to figure out what all was supposed to be happening in the inn at the time. So it goes. I don't seem to have this issue on other sites, and can engage with minimal effort. I'm not saying how things are done here are worse or better than how they are done on other sites, I'm just saying that it's always been hard for me to find a comfortable niche to write here.

That said, I have enjoyed reading some of the RP threads and inns, and even got some ideas from reading them. I just can't see myself being able to meet expectations of writing here without tremendous effort on my part to 'work' it into acceptability. Barrow Downs RP"gaming" is what it is, and suits many, but not me.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

Its like I said before... an RP had to be constructed, not created. Maybe that's how an RP [i]"GAME"[i] (as the term so lovingly is used here) is done I guess. Its was a style I obviously didn't fit into. I'm a writer not a gamer. I thrive in the spontaneous interaction of other writers who can take what is posted and use it to carry the story forward and leave hooks for others to use in their posts, etc.

I think Snowdog has an important point here, the distinction between gamer and writer, between game and role play. Games are always directed by a manager--think back to Dungeon's and Dragon's--and highly organised. Think of Werewolf, which is highly structured by plot/time. A werewolf game is not really about developing character and seeing how that relates to action. (I differ on this point from others.) It's controlled. But role play isn't so highly controlled; 'play' is not always structured drama, but, well, play--imaginative combinations. Children need both play and game to develop healthily. (I mean this in the most positive way, as an essential nature of the human species.) Maybe we threw the baby out with the bathwater?

I also have some sympathy with 'dawg's comments because in several games my posts were called into question by the game owner. At one point, even my wording was questioned (and no, it wasn't spelling or grammar). In fact, I probably greatly disappointed one of the game owners because I refused to write my character the way he wanted. This meant there was no maudlin resolution between her and her father (which to my mind would have violated the character's psychology) although there still was a climactic resolution.

I also understand well dawg's idea of posting spontaneously with hooks for other gamers to pick up, because I started gaming at an Inn he ran on another forum. The Inn wandered all over the place as it was never expected to have a beginning, middle and end. (Did "Cheers" the TV show have an overarching plot? Or was it just episodic?) But it did inspire several games, as gamers worked on character and came up with ideas, and those games had some sense of direction which the writers worked within.

I've had "hooks" taken in directions completely unlike what I anticipated and this was fun, because it was challenging. I've also had 'hooks' completely ignored, to the point where I felt there were parallel projects going on and my character was being ignored. (sob! ) That happened, I think, because I was spontaneously creating actions for reactions whereas other gamers were following some master, prepared game plan. I've also found it frustrating when nothing happens for an eon after a post, because it's like talking to yourself in a void. Or some kind of writerly interruptus.

I will reiterate: I think gamers and game owners would be more committed if they felt the actual writing accomplished something that the planning hadn't already done.

And to support another point: Mark has clarified a good point about Gondor, which my word 'literary' didn't really get at, with her use of "canonical". Yes, Gondor was where the most canonical (or deliberately non-canonical) games were to be. Good games and good writing can occur in all forums, and be created by all ages, but playing consciously and deliberately with Tolkien's style--getting inside his style as he got inside language--was supposed to be the defining mark. (Sorry, no pun intended on Helen's nick.)

EDIT: Sorry, cross-posted with Formy and Mithadan.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And to support another point: Mark has clarified a good point about Gondor, which my word 'literary' didn't really get at, with her use of "canonical". Yes, Gondor was where the most canonical (or deliberately non-canonical) games were to be. Good games and good writing can occur in all forums, and be created by all ages, but playing consciously and deliberately with Tolkien's style--getting inside his style as he got inside language--was supposed to be the defining mark.

Extremely high standards (but there's nothing bad about high standards, as usually anyone who cares will rise to them - and hopefully above them). So, you've concisely pointed out the expected standards, and reasons for the Gondor forum.

I think though, and why the "elitist" sentiments have come up again, something got lost in the translation to the Gondor forum. I know it's no one's intentions on here to discourage, and make it insanely hard on new RPGers, but I think the standards you've pointed out Beth, aren't made clear enough in Gondor.

Several times it's mentioned that Gondor is the most advanced and expert RPG place. The people posting there have to live up to quality posts and the high standards. There's nothing wrong with having that advanced system, and with an end goal of hoping the place continues to grow and still keep those same "Tolkien" standards of writing. The issue becomes, there is no explanation of what you mean by "maintaining high quality posts." Quality or higher standards are vague, and subjective. Not completely subjective, but what I would call "high quality" may vary from what you call "high quality." We become lost by what the expectations for posting in Gondor are (other than...it has to be high quality!), just as Mithadan was lost when he asked what we want him to do. Combine the high expectations with, "if you don't measure up to these, you may be asked to leave Gondor, but don't feel intimidated!," and that is where the feelings of elitism come up.

We wander in the dark, not knowing what we have to do to get to Gondor, and then finally get frustrated by wandering in the dark for so long. Having an advanced RP-forum, that sets high expectations in and of itself, is not elitist. I don't feel it is, but if there are no clear and explained standards, and "if you can't maintain these standards, you shouldn't be here," does have the unintentional feel of elitism. If the purpose of Gondor is to grow and tap into the talented writers of the forum, we need guides.

Gondor is looking like another Elvenhome. That doesn't mean it needs to be completely tossed out, but life needs brought into it. I am not a writer by any means, but I know (and have met) several talented writers on this forum. Make it easier on the writers and guide members better on the RPG expectations (particularly the high ones for Gondor). I find it impossible to set standards that are too high for people, but we need to know what those standards are and help getting there to reach full potential.

[Firefoot]

I'm just ducking in here really quickly, but I'd like to say I like Formy's idea a lot.

Another idea I'd just like to throw out there - it just occurred to me and I haven't really thought it through, but what if we also created a place (forum? subforum? or maybe a new place isn't really necessary) where people could just toss around ideas with each other? In my mind this serves a similar purpose to the discussion/administrative thread in werewolf where people throw around ideas for new special rules or whatnot. For example, say I'm thinking about starting an RPG but don't really have any concrete ideas... I could start a thread saying something like, "I'd like to write about x, is anyone else also interested and would you like to help come up with a plot idea?" I'm not suggesting totally getting rid of the game owner model, but this could run along side it as a more collaborative sort of thing... although maybe this is almost exactly what planning threads do now. Just a rambling thought - I have to run now.

[Snowdog]

I'm off to work, but very quickly I'll suggest that opening up the Shire (or another forum of whatever you want to call it), for free writing without this control or that control may bring in some new people, creativity, and such. There would be general forum RP rules and guidelines that are common sense ones (using other 's characters, no one or two liner posts, etc.) but the actual tale/"game" would be up to the creator to open up or restrict. Apparently this "Wild West" style is adamantly rejected here. But It's my thought on the matter. I have to deal with too much micro and pico-management at work to want to deal with it on my own leisure time writing.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Extremely high standards (but there's nothing bad about high standards, as usually anyone who cares will rise to them - and hopefully above them). So, you've concisely pointed out the expected standards, and reasons for the Gondor forum.

Actually, I was simply riffing off Mark's post, which touched a point I had made earlier when I said that Rohan was a difficult forum to define and I thought her explanation was better than mine. (And I haven't actually said anything about how many forums I think there should be.)

The procedure for getting to Gondor is fairly straight forward. A gamer simply follows the explanations given in The Shire and Rohan. When I was Moderator of Rohan, all one had to do was run a game in Rohan successfully (which largely meant finishing it), having successfully run a game in The Shire (which got you into Rohan). I don't know if this still pertains but I would expect so. (Why Noggie isn't in Gondor, for example, might simply be that he hasn't had time to finish running a game in Rohan--my guess. Or the inclination.) So, the procedure is I think fairly clear. Play in a game in The Shire, run a game in The Shire, run a game in Rohan, your name goes on the list of Gondorian gamers.

In terms of that more elusive definition of the kind of games anticipated in Gondor, there's always the option of reading games that have been played in Gondor and seeing what they are like. Maybe not all of them will fit that definition of canonicity which Mark suggested and I seconded. But reading them will surely give a person a clear idea of the complexity of the games--complexity on many different levels. (And, to be fair, as I recall when the forums were set up, we couldn't decide where to put the game called Rohan, but finally decided it belonged in the forum of its own name, Rohan. ) And as Mark pointed out, a Gondorian game owner can ask any Downer to play in her or his game. In addition to those Mark names, I seem to recall that Diamond18 and Lush wrote for REB, and I don't think they are on the Gondorian list for game owners. I honestly cannot think of one person who, having completed the procedure for gaming in The Shire and Rohan, was denied access to Gondor as game owner. So I don't think it's the description of Gondor which intimidates. It's the failure of gamers in The Shire and Rohan to finish games and ask to be moved on.

Note that neither Mark nor I wrote the description for Gondor.

pio, when I say Mod or Moderator I mean your position, the one I had, Estelyn's, not facilitator or game initiator.

Formy, I really think it would be better to move away from the idea that a game needs to be approved--or nodded at--by a Moderator, because I think the entire atmosphere needs to be changed whereby people take ownership for their rpg-ing. Your "as a formality" is quite different from what I think is the case now with it's character bios and extended plot lines. I mean, right now animal characters are not allowed at the Meadhall. Where does that put the game My Crow Management, which was a Rohan game, where all the characters were crows?

And yes, Mnemosyne, Translations from the Elvish had a restricted list, but that was for very different reasons.

Sorry if I've skipped other points but RL is being very urgent and I have a PM to reply to from pio.

[Nogrod]

I'm getting to like Form's suggestion more and more, especially after his clarifications on it.

But I'd also like to put some flesh on the bones here by way of asking a few questions. So where would you put the following RP's?

1) "I have this idea that a bunch of people should try to get into place X to warn the king about the on-falling war brewing. I have a few obstacles laid out for you guys so let's see can you overcome them?"

2) "I have this idea that we'd collect these bunch of people escaping from enslavement and then let them meet with some fugitives from an oppising race both in as bad condition: then we could see how they would relate to each other if they had a common enemy."

3) "I have this idea we take this group and they go wandering about the forests to see if there is any adventure brewing. Anyone with a god idea about an adventure should cme forwards."

4) "I have this idea of a Mead Hall where anyone could come and go but as not to bore ourselves by just playing only social relations like those morning-soap operas in TV let's invent some plots in there every now and then to liven things up?"

5) "I have this fan-fic story of mine I would like to make you perform. I'l tell you what to do and how to write and then you do the writing under my supreme control. Anticipate me correcting your posts if I don't like them."

6) "I have this idea of a game where this odd bunch (previously unrelated an different characters) would be thrown into a shipwreck being the sole survivors. Let's see then how they would get along with each other and how they would try to get themselves back to the land?"

7) "I have this basic storyline concerning the very first Atani getting over Morgoth's trickery and reaching Yavanna & Oromë. Do you think you're up to the challenge?"


As someone might have noticed, numbers 1-4 are actually near some actual games that have taken place here, and only numbers 5-7 are deliberately invented.


Now using Form's categories, I'd say that game-ideas 1, 5 and 7 should belong to "Doriath" and the others to "Rivendell". Case 2 could be discussed though as the "getting there" woud require some active leading from the part of the gameowner (or whatever the term for the initiator of the game would be), but after it reached the aimed condition it would sound to me more like a Rivendell one.

I don't think the length should be a decisive factor. The one initiating the game should tell others whether s/he's looking forwards to a long one or a short one - and the others could make their decisions to join or not also based on that.

But what I see coming through from these examples loud and clear is that the Doriath games would be much more dependent on the gameowner while the Rivendell ones could be more collectively led.

But that is no way a "writing-quality"-issue! I could see a bunch of creative and involved writers making a great story from 7) even if the gameowner had the basic outline of the story already planned - and I could see big egoes and non-co-operative players ruining story 6).

Also, from the form I deliberately took up there with my examples you can see that I do think we shoud open the ownership of the RP's to anyone. Anyone could suggest a game by opening a thread and if there were enough players interested in it the people interested could play it. And if there was not, then the gme woud not go on.

Okay, I can see a problem lurking here... With a new ruling given there might be a burst of new games offered and there could be something like a beauty or popularity contest involved.

Even if I do also belong to the camp carrying the cards of the "less rules, less regulation" -camp, I do think we should have a few basic rules & requirements. Like that those willing to set up their own game should have played at least in one game before it - so that the others had an idea of the person and her/his reliability as a gameowner etc. (This is something I think the werewolfing community has been wise enough to regulate themselves n that vein after a few bad experiences).

Taking Form's two categories would then leave us to decide on what to do with the Inns. My gut feeling would be the following.

Let's make the Scarburg Mead Hall a Rivendell game with a long history behind it.

The Golden Perch Inn I'm less clear about (I haven't been reading it in a long time so I'm not exactly sure how it goes nowadays). But I do think we should have a "boot camp" of sorts for those willing to familiarise themselves with RPG'ing in the 'Downs - and if it's not the GP, then we'd need to come up with a new one for that purpose (although it should be rewarding enough to the innkeeper and those others of us writing there when there is no imminent flow of new writers rushing in all the time ).