Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Todorius]

Hi,
I am new to this forum and have read this topic with great interest.
I have to say that I also feel so disturbed by the scene Gandalf vs Witchking eversince I have seen it the first time 5 years ago. Honestly, I wanted to punch the monitor when I saw it. To me, this scene represents an outrageous break with the spirit of Tolkien. It is clear that Peter Jackson or his crew have not understood the meaning of the figure of Gandalf in any way. For me, they did an excellent job on the first movie, a good job on the second one, and even the beginning of the third one was good. Then everything falls apart and drifts towards cinematic nonsense.
Well, that's why I decided to do an edit of the scene Gandalf vs Witchking 3 years ago, I did my best, still it could be much better if someone had the necessary tools:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoFRnsYdP2Y

also, I enhanced Gandalfs power in to other scenes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REdVUTEs57M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KiN-4thC6U

Maybe you like it.
I know it will not fully restore the dignity of Gandalf the white, but at least it is a try towards that direction. It could be done much better.

[Pitchwife]

Welcome to the Downs, Todorius, hope you'll enjoy being dead!
Good jobs on those edits - yep, that's much more like the Gandalf we know and love. I especially liked the part where he makes the broken gate close again, before Grond breaks through the second time, reminiscent of the shutting-spell he used in Moria (Chamber of Mazarbûl).
(A little bit of nitpicking, if you don't mind: the spell Gandalf tried at the west gate of Moria - "elvish gate, open for us" - isn't really appropriate here, as the gate wasn't elvish and he wanted it to stay closed, not open; but I realize you had to use something, and as long as one doesn't know what the words mean (most movie-goers probably didn't) it works nicely.)

[Todorius]

Thanks a lot.
I really hope that someday in the future, someone will come along and do an even better edit, with better effects. There is still a lot of room for improvements.

Yeah, you are right with the spell, I took it from FOTR where Gandalf tries to open the gate of Moria. It matched so well to the lip movement at the gate scene, and sounded like an impressive spell in that context.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Todorius

Thanks a lot.
I really hope that someday in the future, someone will come along and do an even better edit, with better effects.

Or better still, an entire better movie. Preferably with Tom Bombadil in it.

[Morsul the Dark]

I agree this bit in the movie was odd the rest of the trilogy was great fun to watch and got me hooked on Middle-Earth Peter Jackson had to appeal to both Book Fans AND Movie Fans He He had to compromise with people and we have to compromise with him.... He had to add things lose things and even change things I'm sure we could pull off a 100% Perfect rendition of LOTR if we pooled our resources but who would watch it? answer not enough to make it profitable...though now that the idea is there it DOEs sound like fun...

[Todorius]

Good idea.
Count me in. I would take the job as special effects supervisor, ha ha
Oh and maybe I would also like to play a small part in our new version of the movie, but only a really small part, let's say... maybe....Aragorn. lol.

[Sarumian]

Hello everyone,

The problem I see with this scene is that it’s very difficult to explain what happens there and why, and such explanations usually don’t fit into the LoTR’s universe. It looks like PJ turned Gandalf into just a human skilled in magic. This fact wasn’t even clearly stated in the movie, but affects lots of things. The engine of Tolkien’s plot, as I see it, is the fight of the league of “earthly” and “heavenly” good spirits against evil ranks. Tolkien’s Gandalf, together with other Istari and the Eagles of Manwe, represents “heavenly” powers in ME, helping fight against the Dark Lord’s demonic power. But if Gandalf is something different, and ainur are not involved, how can we be sure that we may use the Tolkien’s universe to understand things happening? We have to narrow our comprehension to what is shown in the movie, but it’s obviously not enough. Where does evil originate and what is Sauron in this case? Why does the wizard say some abracadabra about fire of Anor in the scene with Balrog? Why he calls himself Olorin when Aragorn & K meet him in the forest? Etc. Assuming that the creation of a universe to support the storyline was Tolkien’s greatest achievement, what PJ offers instead?

But even if we let Gandalf remain some sort of “heavenly” envoy, the scene still causes inconveniences. How did WK manage to threaten Gandalf so ghastly, making him look totally reluctant to fight? Gandalf seemed to fear only two things: to get fallen (via claiming the One Ring) or to fail in his duty; he didn’t fear death, for him death means nothing but return to Valinor. Or WK convinced Gandalf that the world of men has already fallen? As it seems to me, he would have been capable of doing this only if Sauron had contacted Gandalf personally, for instance if at that very moment the Red Eye had caught Gandalf, like it used to happen to Frodo. Otherwise Gandalf was totally ready to fight with WK. On top of that Gandalf’s weakness should’ve gone very shortly – simply because Gandalf had quite a fightable enemy just in front of him and had nothing to loose. Moreover, how WK could strip the envoy of Vallar of all his magic powers? Many of them were just inherent. Yes, similar thing happened to Saruman, but Saruman had fallen - Gandalf hadn’t!

And whether Gandalf is a maia or not, there are some other issues. For instance, after his failure to keep WK out, Gandalf’s previous claim that he was the second mightiest being in ME makes him look silly and presumptuous. I wonder if that was the reason why WK was able to strip him of his magic powers so effortlessly.

Then, we know under which circumstances Gandalf the Grey was promoted to be the White, don’t we? He had to defeat Balrog and to die to achieve it. So what about WK? His upgrade just needs to be as spectacular as Gandalf’s encounter with Balrog! What sort of exceptional powers and magic devices the Wraith received? Well, Tolkien didn’t say much about that, but he also avoided showing actual fight – so the powers never measured each other directly. As soon as this happens in the movie, we need to understand the enemies’ potentials – to find what they achieved purely by their courage, high spirit, despair etc. Just for breaking the staff WK needed an enormous enhancement: I can think only about receiving the Rings of Power, all twelve remaining – ten for fingers, two for… well, should it be his toes? Ears? Nose? Or the Prince Albert’s piercing? Please underline and find out what could’ve been done with all this jewellery after WK’s sudden departure.

Finally, PJ amended the scene because he wanted to make it more dramatic and visually attractive. I can see his point because the moment comes as Nadir in the struggle against the Dark Lord; it is also the high time for Gandalf who must have been preparing to face it for all his life as an Istari. As for me it all came up extremely un-dramatic. The scene is just too short, not even two minutes as if it was a minor accident. Should I mention that the final talk to Saruman took five minutes and half.

PJ also says the idea was that the driving force passes into the hands of men. But this is what Tolkien says by HIS version of the event, and there was no need to force an open door. What can actually be more dramatic then a personal encounter of to mighty characters in an hour of doom? To be or not to be – a chance for a director; and PJ missed it that time, I’m afraid. However, he’s done a great job; Sir Ian’s performance is outstanding even in this scene; and, in the end, it’s too short – we can just forget it. Though I regret about what could have been done instead.