Butturbur's Worst Customers

[Bêthberry]

Great thread title, Inziladun! And very interesting conjectures here from everyone.

To be honest, I have a bit of a different idea about Aragorn's comments. I've never thought of them as anything but a reference to the Black Riders. I could be wrong, but it strikes me that they are the closest foes Aragorn has most recently faced and might possibly be upper-most in his mind.

After all, at the Prancing Pony he said to Frodo:

Originally Posted by Aragorn, chapter 'Strider'

'Now, don't mistake me,!' he cried, as Frodo rose from his seat, and Sam jumped up with a scowl. 'I shall take more care of the secret than you do. And care is needed!' He leaned forward and looked at them. 'Watch every shadow!' he said in a low voice. 'Black horsemen have passed trhough Bree. On Monday one came down the Greenway, the say; and another appeared later, coming up the Greenway from the south.'

Then later as Butterbur produces Gandalf's letter for Frodo, he says,

Originally Posted by Butterbur, chapter 'Strider'

'Leaving the letter aside, I promised Gandalf no less. Barley, he says to me, this friend of mine from the Shire, he maybe coming out this way before long, him and another. He'll be calling himself Underhill. Mind that! But you need ask no questions. And if I'm not with him, he may be in trouble, and he may need help. Do whatever you can for him, and I'll be grateful, he says. And here you are, and trouble is not far off, seemingly.'

'What do you mean?' asked Frodo.

'These black men,' said the landlord lowering his voice. 'They're looking for Baggins, and if they mean well, then I'm a hobbit. It was on Monday, and all the dogs were yammering and the geese screaming. Uncanny, I called it. Nob, he came and told me that two black men were at the door asking for a hobbit called Baggins. Nob's hair was all stood on end. I bid the black fellows be off, and slammed the door on them; but they've been asking the same question all the way to Archet, I heard.

. . .

'What are all these queer goings on? What are these black men after, and where do they come fron, I'd like to know?'

'I'm sorrry I can't explain it all,' answered Frodo. . . . These Black Riders: I am not sure, but I think they come from---'

'They come from Mordor,' said Strider in a low voice. 'From Mordor, Barliman, if that means anything to you.'

'Save us!' cried Mr. Butterbur turning pale; the name was evidently known to him. 'That is the worst news that has come to Bree in my time.'

Aragorn's words are general enough at the Council of Elrond, yet his reference to "the one fat man" suggests the Innkeeper of the Prancing Pony, who has shown us (in passages I haven't quoted) how little he understands or appreciates Strider. I could be wrong, of course, but it seems to me that no fell creature of the Barrow Downs nor troll of the wilds could strike the uncanny fear into the hearts of men (and hobbits) that the Black Riders do; nor could they be the foes which freeze Butterbur 's heart.

[CSteefel]

One argument against this last interpretation is that in fact the Rangers were unable to keep the Black Riders from overrunning Bree. The Witch King swept the Rangers away at Tharbad, and then a few days later (after invading the Shire), swept through Bree...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Aragorn's words are general enough at the Council of Elrond, yet his reference to "the one fat man" suggests the Innkeeper of the Prancing Pony, who has shown us (in passages I haven't quoted) how little he understands or appreciates Strider. I could be wrong, of course, but it seems to me that no fell creature of the Barrow Downs nor troll of the wilds could strike the uncanny fear into the hearts of men (and hobbits) that the Black Riders do; nor could they be the foes which freeze Butterbur 's heart.

I of course also don't think that a troll could strike the fear into the hearts of men - though I think the BWs could pretty well, what makes you think they would not? People are scared only by tales about the hills they live in, and all this cold grasping hearts of the hobbits... well, surely you can read for yourself and see what impression it makes.
Anyway, I certainly don't think that Aragorn would be speaking about Black Riders on the Council, because if he says:

"Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly.

That certainly does not refer to the Black Riders. The "foes" are there obviously permanently (see the words used: "lives" and "ceaselessly", that would not be used for riders who have been around there for a few days). It actually, after seeing this, really makes me think more and more of the Barrow-Wights. Although like I said before, it just somehow does not go well with the impression I have of them being the "homely folk" staying in their tombs and haunting passing visitors. Also I already expressed my doubts when it comes to the power of the Rangers to stop them from invading civilised lands, if they chose to.

Originally Posted by CSteefel

One argument against this last interpretation is that in fact the Rangers were unable to keep the Black Riders from overrunning Bree. The Witch King swept the Rangers away at Tharbad, and then a few days later (after invading the Shire), swept through Bree...

A slight note (I don't want to be picky, but since you said it already for the second time ): it was at Sarn Ford, not at Tharbad. I know that in the rather unexplored wilderness south of Bree one really hardly cares, but these two places are some three days ride from each other and are something completely different. (Sarn Ford were the southern borders of the Shire, that was why the Rangers were there.)

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I of course also don't think that a troll could strike the fear into the hearts of men - though I think the BWs could pretty well, what makes you think they would not? People are scared only by tales about the hills they live in, and all this cold grasping hearts of the hobbits... well, surely you can read for yourself and see what impression it makes.

My sentence was a comparison, that the uncanny fear of the Black Riders was greater than any fear of the Barrow Wights (see the bolding I've added here); I didn't say that the wights could not inspire fear. It's a matter of degree.

Originally Posted by Legate

Anyway, I certainly don't think that Aragorn would be speaking about Black Riders on the Council, because if he says:

Quote:
"Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly.

That certainly does not refer to the Black Riders. The "foes" are there obviously permanently (see the words used: "lives" and "ceaselessly", that would not be used for riders who have been around there for a few days).

The verb "lives" refers to "one fat man who lives", not to the foes. I think--and of course anyone is free to disagree--that Aragorn is here describing his life to Boromir and staking his claim as heir to Isildur. He speaks generally of his life, although the recent events at the Prancing Pony--where Butterbur clearly was greatly disturbed by news of the Riders--have influenced his thoughts. He is pointing out that he has had a harder time of it than Boromir in Gondor, receiving little thanks--and we've just seen how poorly Butterbur thinks of Strider.

Originally Posted by Legate

It actually, after seeing this, really makes me think more and more of the Barrow-Wights. Although like I said before, it just somehow does not go well with the impression I have of them being the "homely folk" staying in their tombs and haunting passing visitors. Also I already expressed my doubts when it comes to the power of the Rangers to stop them from invading civilised lands, if they chose to.

I too have a similar sense that the wights don't travel far beyond their barrows. But it's Tom who can control the wights, not Aragorn.

[Rumil]

Mewlips??

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Mewlips??

Rumil, a splendid contribution! Much appreciated.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It actually, after seeing this, really makes me think more and more of the Barrow-Wights.

A slight note (I don't want to be picky, but since you said it already for the second time ): it was at Sarn Ford, not at Tharbad. I know that in the rather unexplored wilderness south of Bree one really hardly cares, but these two places are some three days ride from each other and are something completely different. (Sarn Ford were the southern borders of the Shire, that was why the Rangers were there.)

Right about Sarn Ford--I have been reading too much in the Unfinished Tales recently, where Tharbad is discussed quite a bit.

Otherwise, one interpretation is that the foes that would freeze one's heart, or overrun the town, are two separate groups. Perhaps the Wights will freeze one's heart, but being immobile, are not really a threat to Bree. One day's ride here makes sense for the Barrow Downs. And those who would overrun Bree are the ruffians coming up from the south...

But I still wonder about those dark figures in the woods that Butterbur mentions...

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Perhaps the Wights will freeze one's heart, but being immobile, are not really a threat to Bree.

Just because Barrow-Wights don't move around much, doesn't mean that they aren't immobile. Don't you remember in the Adventures of Tom Bombadil where there is a Barrow-Wight in his wardrobe? It means that they can, and do sometimes move around elsewhere. Which makes them a likely candidate for those dark shapes in the forest that Butterbur spoke of. Not saying that they are in fact what those shapes were.

As was stated before, there are many different creatures in ME, it could have been anyone of them. Aren't there some inhabitants of the Ice Bay of Forochel, or however it's called? They might be coming down to Bree. Also, I seem to recall there being spirits living all over Eriador. Weren't there many spirits sorts living there because of the Witch King?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

My sentence was a comparison, that the uncanny fear of the Black Riders was greater than any fear of the Barrow Wights (see the bolding I've added here); I didn't say that the wights could not inspire fear. It's a matter of degree.

Oh surely greater, but still, even a BW could "freeze" your heart if it came to that, I am sure.

The verb "lives" refers to "one fat man who lives", not to the foes.

Yes, I know, but he "lives" there apparently all his life, and thus, also the enemies are there all the time when he lives (or at least for some time). Certainly Aragorn was not speaking of a few random wraiths or something that was there just for a week and then went away, it would be phrased a lot differently.

Originally Posted by Rumil

Mewlips??

Well, from what is said about them I got the impression that they live closer to the Sea

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

As was stated before, there are many different creatures in ME, it could have been anyone of them. Aren't there some inhabitants of the Ice Bay of Forochel, or however it's called? They might be coming down to Bree. Also, I seem to recall there being spirits living all over Eriador. Weren't there many spirits sorts living there because of the Witch King?

Well, the folk who lives in Forochel are the Lossoth, who are again humans. Ruffians, nomads (anyway, the Lossoth don't make impression that they would neither go that far South - what for? - nor that they would be particularly evil, quite the opposite, they seem to be somewhat primitive, but relatively nice folk, something like Drúedain) - all that certainly would not go well in my imagination with the "dark shapes" or the "heart-freezing foes".

As for the spirits, I also don't think there were that plenty of them. The concentration of them nearest to Bree were the Barrow-Downs, we don't know about anything else, though I could imagine some others roaming Angmar or Rhudaur, but that still does not point to the thing Aragorn mentioned. We don't know anything about another "permanent settlement of wraiths" close to Bree.

[Pitchwife]

This just reminded me of something:

Originally Posted by LotR Book I, The Shadow of the Past

'All right,' said Sam, laughing with the rest. 'But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.'

The Prof never bothered to explain what business an Ent may have had being abroad on the borders of the Shire, but judging from the description - 'as big as an elm tree, and walking seven years to a stride' - it would seem what Sam's cousin Hal saw was exactly that. But then again, an Ent - or maybe a Huorn? A wandering grove of Huorns in bad mood would surely be enough to freeze poor Barliman's heart!
Point being, if Ents and/or Huorns were roaming around in northern Eriador, who knows what else? It doesn't have to be Barrow-wights or Trolls or anything else we know about - maybe rather something like the Mewlips (good point, Rumil!), if we take them as a placeholder for any kind of creature that doesn't come into the narrative or the larger Legendarium, but may have been there nevertheless. Think of it, we only meet such apparent solitaires as Shelob or the Watcher in the Water because the path of Frodo's quest happened to cross their habitats, but there may have been many more both like and unlike them. So in short, I agree with what Tuor said above, that this is probably rather a case of 'unexplained vistas' extending beyond the frame of the canvas, or maybe rather a vague glimpse of things peeping over the frame of the canvas from outside.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

As was stated before, there are many different creatures in ME, it could have been anyone of them. Aren't there some inhabitants of the Ice Bay of Forochel, or however it's called? They might be coming down to Bree.

I think that they would be the ones that were frozen in that case.

[Alfirin]

Maybe not the Men of Forochel but some of the beasts of Forochel, if the wandered in might cause chills (especially under wicked influence). If Forochel is (in some ways) based on our own far north it might have similar fauna. I would imagine that something along the lines of a polar bear (under a dark influence to direct it) if it wandered into a place like Bree could cause massive consternation and destruction (especially when you consider that ME animals while more diminutive thatn thier First age cousins are sill usally describes as bein much bigger than the one's we are used to so a ME polar bear might likey be along the lines of a cave bear or even a quoquogaq (an enormous polar bear like creature of Inuit legend)) Forochel might also have big nasty Aurochses (if there were wild Kine in Rhun there might have been wild oxen elswhere and possibly even its own, shaggy Oliphaunts. Any of there under a malicios taint would strike fear into ANY villager

[Bêthberry]

I remain intrigued by Inziladun's question. It is very interesting to consider Aragorn's words at the Council of Elrond in terms of the history of plotting LotR. Consider for a moment some of these situations found in HoME (and possibly UT, although that I haven't that at hand at the moment).

In some of the earlier drafts of LotR, when Aragorn was still the hobbit Trotter, a town was mentioned on the Greenway which would have been within a day's march of Bree (give or take I think), called Andrath (earlier name, Amrath). It was supposed to run between the Barrow Downs and the south Downs. It is listed on Fontad's map of Middle earth (for which information I thank Estelyn, as my Fonstad also is not at hand) ; it was not named on the 1943 map, but Christopher Tolkien's note describes it.

Originally Posted by Christopher Tolkien, fn 7, "Of Hamilcar, Gandalf, and Saruman", HoME 7

With this cf. Unfinished Tales p. 348: "The Black Captain established a camp at Andrath, where the Greenway passed in a defile between the Barrow-Downs and the South Downs." On the First Map (p. 305) Andrath (very probably first written Amrath, p.298) is marked as a point beside the Greenway a little nearer to Bree than to Tharbad.

In the early draft according to HoMe 7, Gandalf reports the events with the Chief Rider.

Originally Posted by Gandalf, "Of Hamilcar, Gandalf, and Saruman", HoMe 7

. . . I believe the three Riders reported that Gandalf and "Baggins" had ridden East. Their chieftain was at Amrath, far down the Greenway in the south, and the news must have reached him late on Friday. I fancy the Chief Rider was sorely puzzled when the advance guard reported that Baggins and the Ring had been in Bree the very night when they thought they had caught him in Crickhollow!

One of Tolkien's narrative outlines, entitled "New Plot" presents the events thusly:

Originally Posted by Tolkien, "Of Hamilcar, Gandalf, and Saruman", HoMe 7

D E F G [four Black Riders] with poor Ham now ride to Greenway (does Harry see them? Probably not). At Amrath they meet the King (A) [that is, the chief Black Rider] and B C, on Wednesday 28th, leaving for the moment the Road deserted. The King [ie, Witch King] is angry at this. He is suspicious of a plot since Ham has no Ring. D E are sent back to Bree, arriving late on Thursday 29th . (Meanwhile, the hobbits have got to the Inn.) F G go back to the Shire.

This shows that Amrath was likely a day's march of Bree.

As CT makes clear, this section of LotR (concerning Ham Bolger) went through several narrative outlines and the Council of Elrond went through five versions, the fourth of which ends with Aragorn's speech, then incompletely developed.

While Ham Bolger and Andrath are excised from the fifth version, it is intriguing to imagine that Andrath still existed in Tolkien's mind and formed a backdrop to the revision of Aragorn's speech.

Originally Posted by Aragorn, Council of Elrond, LotR

'But my home, such as I have, is in the North. For here the heirs of Valandil have ever dwelt in long line unbroken from father unto son for many generations. Our days have darkened, and we have dwindled; but ever the Sword has passed to a new keeper. And this I will say to you, Boromir, ere I end. Lonely men are we, Rangers of the wild, hunters--but hunters ever of the servants of the Enemy; for they are found in many places, not in Mordor only. [my bolding]

Who or what Aragorn refers to in the subsequent paragraphs--the dark things [that] come from the houseless hills, or creep from sunless woods--he is elaborating on his initial statement that he hunted "servants of the Enemy."

Originally Posted by Legate

Yes, I know, but he "lives" there apparently all his life, and thus, also the enemies are there all the time when he lives (or at least for some time).

I'm inclined to interpret Aragorn's comment as the Instaneous present, meaning at the time Aragorn speaks, rather than the Timeless present. In fact, I might even say that Aragron's speech partakes of a performative declaration, which, according to Quirk and Greenbaum's A University Grammar of English, is expressed in the simple present Instaneous. But you don't have to take my word for it; I'm just the resident pedant here.