What's in a Staff?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

This is wholly speculation, mind you; there's absolutely no proof to support it, except perhaps in Saruman's statement about Gandalf wanting the staffs of all the Five Wizards, which indicates some degree of more than symbolic importance to the items (this thought, of course, is contradicted by the puzzling fact that when Gandalf was a prisoner in Orthanc, Saruman let him keep his staff. We know this because he had it and used it, if I recall correctly, when Gwaihir plucked him off the top of the tower).

I think Saruman's statement actually further strengthens the symbolic argument, because it's just Saruman ranting about Gandalf becoming power-hungry:

"Later! Yes, when you have the Keys of Barad-dur itself, I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards, and have purchased yourself a pair of boos many sizes larger than those that you wear now."~Voice of Saruman

It's all symbolic for Saruman calling Gandalf power-hungry, concluded in Tolkien's interesting spin on a common phrase for someone becoming "too big for their own boots."

Saruman is claiming Gandalf wants the Keys to Barad-dur (power over Sauron).

crowns of seven kings (note: "of" seven kings, not "of the") - a symbolic statement by Saruman saying Gandalf wants power of seven kings, or power over Men, power over the physical realm of Middle-earth. If Saruman was referring to specific seven kings, it would be "of the" as he does in his next statement

rods of the Five Wizards - the staffs being a symbol of the Istari power, Gandalf wants power over the Istari, power over the spiritual realm.

What's ironic is Saruman is projecting his desires onto Gandalf.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't see Saruman having any incentive to follow suit, especially since he was so well versed in ring-lore that he likely knew just how vulnerable Sauron had made himself by dividing his power.

I don't know, of course as with almost anything you can argue multiple views, but I think Saruman's ego became so big he let that get in the way of his (at one point) reasoned judgement:

"For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-Maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"~Council of Elrond

Gandalf notes that Saruman has a ring, it is debatable whether Saruman made it or not (since Tolkien cut out parts of earlier drafts where it is explicitlly stated that Saruman made his own Ring)...However, Saruman does use the title "Ring-Maker" which is a title that Sauron is also known as. Saruman's ego was becoming Sauron and conceived himself to become even more powerful than Sauron. I think he would have done anything to emulate, or try to achieve Sauron's power, since his ego takes over for rational judgement.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Gandalf notes that Saruman has a ring, it is debatable whether Saruman made it or not (since Tolkien cut out parts of earlier drafts where it is explicitlly stated that Saruman made his own Ring)...However, Saruman does use the title "Ring-Maker" which is a title that Sauron is also known as. Saruman's ego was becoming Sauron and conceived himself to become even more powerful than Sauron. I think he would have done anything to emulate, or try to achieve Sauron's power, since his ego takes over for rational judgement.

If that was the case, I think it much more likely he would have tried to transfer his power into the ring, in imitation of Sauron, rather than into his staff.

[Lush]

I can certainly see symbolism in the staffs, as well.

As can I.

But seriously, what strikes me about the staffs in particular is how Tolkien avoids making them gimmicky. I think they very obviously have a lot of visual power as well - in terms of delineating a certain kind of authority.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Lush

As can I.

No doubt. Rings and staffs - Dr Freud, can you please shut up?
But seriously:

Originally Posted by Ancalagon'sFire

The term ash-staff also intrigues

Using mythological meta-reasoning, it's only logical that Gandalf's staff would be made of ash. Gandalf is, among other things, very reminiscent of Odin in his persona as The Wanderer (described in the Edda and Sagas as a bearded old man wearing hat and cloak, and using his spear as a walking-stick), and Odin is intimately connected with Yggdrasill, the World-Ash (which is named thus ['the steed of Ygg', Ygg being another name for Odin] because Odin was hanged in its branches in a ritual of shamanic initiation).

Originally Posted by Ancalagon'sFire

Gandalf is most associated with the staff

Indeed. His very name derives from this association: Norse Gand·alfr = 'elvish wight with a staff' (Tolkien's translation).

Originally Posted by Ibrin

this thought, of course, is contradicted by the puzzling fact that when Gandalf was a prisoner in Orthanc, Saruman let him keep his staff.

If the staffs of the Istari were something like badges of office, symbols of the authority bestowed on them by the Valar, Saruman would have had no right - and hence, no power - to take Gandalf's staff from him as long as Gandalf remained faithful to his mission; only the Valar themselves (as the issuers of the staff) could do this, or someone acting on their behalf, like Gandalf the White did when he broke Saruman's staff, revoking Saruman's authority when it had become clear he had deserted the mission.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ancalagon'sFire

What is it about an Istari wizard that requires him to have a staff? 5 entered Middle-Earth, all of whom had staff's but what connects each and what, if any, power lies in possession of a staff?

Interestingly enough, in the quote from UT you mentioned afterward, only Gandalf himself was described as having a staff when the Istari first arrived:

Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; and the last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff.

If all had their staffs upon arrival, why is Gandalf's possession of one so noteworthy?
Along those lines, there is this quote from TTT, where Faramir tells Frodo and Sam about Gandalf's words to him years earlier:

'Many are my names in many countries. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves...'

And in a related note in UT regarding that quote, Tharkûn is said to have the meaning 'staff-man'.
Again, it's interesting that Gandalf gets the distinction of association with a staff. We don't know the Dwarven names for the other Istari, but presumably their names aren't derived from their attachment to a staff.

Lastly, was Radagast described as having a staff when he met with Gandalf on the borders of the Shire? I don't have a copy of FOTR with me, but I don't remember any mention of one.

[Findegil]

Gandalfs staff is mentioned at his arival because he is leaning on it, like an old man needing it support. At least that is theoverall impresion I got from the discribtion.

I think in the secene with Gandalf Radagasts staff was not mentioned, but Saruman confirmed that Radagast had one when he blamed Gandalf lustin all staffes of the five wizards.

Respetfully
Findegil

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Gandalfs staff is mentioned at his arival because he is leaning on it, like an old man needing it support. At least that is theoverall impresion I got from the discribtion.

If that was the case, why wouldn't it say 'an old man, leaning on his staff', to show others had them, but were not relying on them for support?

Bêthberry and Pitch, I'll outdo you in pedantry yet!