Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

It is true that he confronted a greater foe, and died.

He defeated the Balrog. His physical manifestation, the body that his spirit was cloaked in, died, but the Maia that was Gandalf did not. The Valar brought him back to finish his task. So do you think the Valar would actually allow him to fall to the WiKi when they did not against the Balrog? Sorry, that makes no sense.

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

The Lord of the Nazgûl could not be defeated by the hand of a man, Éowyn would have been torn to pieces if it weren't for Merry..

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

Gandalf is a powerful wizard, yes, but he is still mortal whereas the Leader of the Nine is not.

Was Gandalf 'mortal' after he was ressurrected by the Valar? Could he even be considered a 'man' or was he a different being altogether after being revivified by Valinor? "Gandalf? Yes... that was what they used to call me. Gandalf the Gray. That was my name. I am Gandalf the White." He was now an angelic messenger sent back at "the turning of the tide."

As far as the WitchKing, he fleed like a coward from Glorfindel, and was destroyed by a young maiden and a hobbit. Those are not bullet points to put on one's resume. In fact, there is not a single instance during the War of the Ring where he succeeded in direct confrontation. He wasn't even successful with other Ringwraiths surrounding him.

But really, this is all academic. JoltFlame, what proofs can you provide from the text to support your claim? I have yet to see anything direct and concrete from you regarding your stance, or at least anything that hasn't been discounted as cheap parlor tricks on the part of the WiKi.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Valar brought him back to finish his task.

Just to be perfectly accurate to Tolkien's concept, it was Eru (God) who sent Gandalf back, enhanced in power. I rather doubt that Eru would have bothered to send him back in a state that would be capable of being easily defeated by someone who was, when all is said and done, a thrall of Sauron's, bound to him and the world by a ring of Power. Referring to the resurrected Gandalf, Tolkien said (letter 156) that his wisdom and power were now much greater. If no physical weapon could harm him, as is the clear implication in his remark to Aragorn et al in Fangorn, then what weapon would the Witch King have? Fear? "Magic"? Since in Tolkien's world, magic is

(okay, let's finish what I was typing when the computer went bats...)

derived from the personal power and ability native in the being who wields it. Sauron used his own power in making the Ring powerful, and thus lessened his own strength without it. One can only presume that to some extent, Celebrimbor did the same thing. And it would explain why the Rings could only give power commensurate with the ability of its bearer. Which means that ultimately, the Witch King could never have had ability greater than Gandalf's, because he was natively human, while Gandalf was in reality a Maia, cloaked in a human but not mortal form. Destructible, yes. Mortal, as Men are mortal, no.

[JoltFlame]

It ought to be obvious that I was referring to the dagger which Merry possessed.

In regard to the question stating if Gandalf was mortal, I have to say, that is foolish, even for a question. He returned enhanced and wiser but he was still mortal, of course, and a man only.

The Black Captain also gained strength before assaulting the White City, and his power increased as time passed, that is why he was able to outmatch The White Rider.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

In regard to the question stating if Gandalf was mortal, I have to say, that is foolish, even for a question. He returned enhanced and wiser but he was still mortal, of course, and a man only.

Utter nonsense, Jolt. While the Istari were clothed in the bodies of old men, and those bodies could feel and be affected by the same things as men's, there is absolutely no doubt that they were Ainur, the same type of being as the Valar and the Maia, with powers and defenses far, far greater than any possessed by a mortal man.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Just to be perfectly accurate to Tolkien's concept, it was Eru (God) who sent Gandalf back, enhanced in power. ... Referring to the resurrected Gandalf, Tolkien said (letter 156) that his wisdom and power were now much greater.

What part of Gandalf's power do you think comes from his staff in the first place, Ibrîn? Is it really a source of his power and sustenance, as your Latinate signature phrase implies (aside from its more mundane meaning), or is it merely used to focus Gandalf's inherent powers?

For whatever reason, Peter Jackson's Gandalf of Return of the King is a very different Gandalf from Tolkien's. Throughout the movie he lessens in favor of Aragorn, as though there were some insidious transference of power and wisdom from the former to the latter. Even the actor playing Gandalf, Ian McKellen, pitches in with the weakening of Gandalf, by making him cough while smoking in one scene, with Jackson's apparent acquiescence. (I heard McKellen admit that, in typical preachy liberal Hollywood fashion, he did it to add an anti-smoking message to the movie). By the end of the film there's no doubt in the mind of the audience that Aragorn could whip Gandalf's butt in a sword fight, for instance.

(By the way, you're missing a "u" in antiquum.)

[JoltFlame]

I never claimed the Istari weren't Ainur, and since you find my previous post nonsense, I must assume that you believe Gandalf is not a man nor is he mortal.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

I never claimed the Istari weren't Ainur, and since you find my previous post nonsense, I must assume that you believe Gandalf is not a man nor is he mortal.

I don't quite see your point of contention. If you concede the Istari were of the Maiar, how could Gandalf be mortal?

[Eönwë]

I think that everyone's arguing over different things. Are we talking about movie Gandalf, book Gandalf or Olórin?

Because they are all very different with very different strengths.

Obviously, book Gandalf would win as he comes back stronger than before, and even before he killed a Maia incarnated with its full power before dying himself, which is incomparable to a mere man.

Olórin is the even more obvious victor, as he never dies throughout (though Gandalf the Grey, the incarnation does, he himself doesn't as he's a Maia).


But I think the real question is about movie Gandalf.
As for him, I think that if he can kill a Balrog and break Saruman's staff (both of whom are shown as extremely powerful) he could probably beat the Witch-King. As well as this, the Ringwraiths don't seem to pose much of a threat to Rivendell, whereas in even Lothlorien, in which Galadriel seems more powerful than Elrond with her Mirror and such, they are filled with dread at the thought of a "Balrog of Morgoth".
Obviously, Peter Jackson wants us to think otherwise- that Gandalf and the Witch King are evenly matched, or that the Witch King is even more powerful than Gandalf. But I don't think it makes sense even from a purely "movies" perspective.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

Utter nonsense, Jolt. While the Istari were clothed in the bodies of old men, and those bodies could feel and be affected by the same things as men's, there is absolutely no doubt that they were Ainur, the same type of being as the Valar and the Maia, with powers and defenses far, far greater than any possessed by a mortal man.

Yet, at least as the Grey, his body was mortal in the sense that it could wear down, wear out, and be destroyed. If not, Gandalf could have leapt down on the wolves and goblins that had trapped him, Bilbo and the Dwarves in the tree (he was prepared to, but it seemed like it was going to be a sacrifice play).

Then again, he did survive the fall with the Balrog...

For whatever reason, Peter Jackson's Gandalf of Return of the King is a very different Gandalf from Tolkien's.

It was Peter Jackson's take on the work, which was not only internally inconsistent, but a departure from the source.

The scenery was nice...

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by alatar

Yet, at least as the Grey, his body was mortal in the sense that it could wear down, wear out, and be destroyed. If not, Gandalf could have leapt down on the wolves and goblins that had trapped him, Bilbo and the Dwarves in the tree (he was prepared to, but it seemed like it was going to be a sacrifice play).

I've always thought that since The Hobbit was told as a children's story, it could be seen (at least I choose to see it) as a simplified story about the Third Age as told to children, and thus not necessarily a literal retelling of the events as they "actually occurred" in Tolkien's world.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

I've always thought that since The Hobbit was told as a children's story, it could be seen (at least I choose to see it) as a simplified story about the Third Age as told to children, and thus not necessarily a literal retelling of the events as they "actually occurred" in Tolkien's world.

True enough. Then how about Gandalf's discomforture during his imprisonment on the top of Orthanc? If his body was invulnerable to harm, he could have simply jumped off and made a run for it.

He also is anxious in the claws of the Eagle (if I remember correctly).

The whole point of this thread is that the movie Gandalf in that scene was inconsistent with the Gandalf of the novel

Agreed, though Peter Jackson's Gandalf is inconsistent within the movie as well. Check out the Scene-by-scene forum to see my whining and nitpicking about this issue.

[JoltFlame]

Actually, Gandalf according to the book, differs subtly from Gandalf according to the movie. In the movie, Gandalf is made inferior to the Witch-king whereas in the book, we must assume that Gandalf equals the Witch-king in power for no letter or confrontation tells otherwise.

Thus we must conclude that The Black Captain outmatches Gandalf in the movie, but they are equal in the book, and the overall trial of strength ends in favour of the Leader of the Nine.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Mugwump;619620What part of Gandalf's power do you think comes from his staff in the first place, Ibrîn? Is it really a source of his power and sustenance, as your Latinate signature phrase implies (aside from its more mundane meaning), or is it merely used to focus Gandalf's inherent powers?

(By the way, you're missing a "u" in [I

antiquum[/I].)

Personally, I don't feel that any of an Istar's power comes from his staff, because Tolkien said that all magic in ME is a part of the native power of the being who is using it. (My sig -- sorry about the misspelling; it's been about 40 years since Latin Class -- is actually a personal reference. I'm getting up there, and these old bones and joints are creaking badly, these days. Perhaps I should go back to "Stulta vitarae non potes"....? ) I hadn't realized that post actually made it through -- my computer freaked out on me while I was typing. Oops....

[Galadriel]

Gandalf vs. The Witch King? I would have to say Gandalf, since he is a Maia and the Witch King is just a shadow. Sure, he's strong, but he's no match for Mithrandir! PJ made Gandalf look ludicrously weak. I cringed when I saw the way Gandalf fell off his horse and gave The Witch King that helpless look, as if he were saying 'Well. This is the end of me." He was resurrected by Iluvatar himself and he shakes at the sight of a Ringwraith?
And I agree with one of the above comments. In the movie, Eowyn makes Gandalf look like a pansy. Not that she isn't strong, but if she is NOT as strong as a demi-god, then they shouldn't make it seem like that.
I think Gandalf refused to show a good amount of his power. What he demonstrated in the books was like the tip of an iceberg. Maybe even less. After all, he DOES mention in The Two Towers that he is so powerful that practically no one could match him, except 'the one who sits in the Dark Tower'.
This is one of those areas that Tolkien has left very vague. It's another 'Tom Bombadil' scenario where one just doesn't know what to think. One is sure of something, but the rest is just plagued in a cloud, if you take my meaning.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

It ought to be obvious that I was referring to the dagger which Merry possessed.

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

In regard to the question stating if Gandalf was mortal, I have to say, that is foolish, even for a question. He returned enhanced and wiser but he was still mortal, of course, and a man only.

Foolish? Let us do math, shall we? How are you at counting past 1000? How about past 2000? Are you using both fingers and toes yet? Gandalf had been in Middle-earth for over 2000 years at the time of the War of the Ring. Please, can you tell me what mortals live over two millenia? He obviously is not a 'mortal man' within the parameters set by Tolkien. The oldest known 'mortal man' was Elros Half-elven, who loved to be 500, but he was given special dispensation and chose the gift of mortality. On a side note, nowhere does it say the WitchKing could indeed not be killed by the hand of man. You misunderstand a prophecy given by Glorfindel, who said:

"Do not pursue him! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."

Just as you took the narrowest view of the quote, so did the WiKi. Glorfindel's prophesy was indeed fulfilled when Eowyn, a female, slew the WiKi, with the aid of a Hobbit (who was indeed an adult male, but technically not a 'man'), but this was only based on circumstance. Nowhere does it say that the WiKi could not be killed by a man. This is emphasized when the WiKi flees from Glorfindel, rather than face an Elf of Aman in his wrath. Why run if the WiKi could not be slain? Was it because Glorfindel was a male Elf but not a 'man'? If that is the case, then Gandalf, a Maia, was no more a 'man' than Glorfindel was a 'man'. Gandalf may have 'appeared' to be a man, but that is no more the case than Glorfindel or Meriadoc not being defined as 'men'.

Which brings us to your contention that the blade of Westernesse used by Meriadoc played a part in the WiKi's destruction. The text points to the blade and not the bearer as the reason for its effect on the Wiki; therefore, a Dunedain male, a mortal man and maker of the knife, would have had the same effect on the WiKi as a Hobbit. The Dunedain who crafted the baneful blades wrought the knives for one specific reason, to kill the WiKi. They didn't make them in fashionable designed colors and hand them out to the ladies of their court.

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

The Black Captain also gained strength before assaulting the White City, and his power increased as time passed, that is why he was able to outmatch The White Rider.

That is not mentioned in the movie, and there is not much emphasis on that point in the book. Funny you should believe something as truth when such a thing is never discussed in movie terms. As far as the movies, PJ was all over the place in regards to the liberties he took from the books, and his annoying inconsistencies were noted several times in this thread. In the books, the WiKi neither broke Gandalf's staff, nor seemed to intimidate him in the least. When facing the Balrog, Gandalf showed real concern. That just was not the case with the WiKi. The WiKi was not, as Tolkien stated, Gandalf's primary foe, Sauron was.

Please read the book again as many times as necessary. Use it like shampoo, wash, rinse, repeat.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

That is not mentioned in the movie, and there is not much emphasis on that point in the book. Funny you should believe something as truth when such a thing is never discussed in movie terms. As far as the movies, PJ was all over the place in regards to the liberties he took from the books, and his annoying inconsistencies were noted several times in this thread. In the books, the WiKi neither broke Gandalf's staff, nor seemed to intimidate him in the least. When facing the Balrog, Gandalf showed real concern. That just was not the case with the WiKi. The WiKi was not, as Tolkien stated, Gandalf's primary foe, Sauron was.

From the movie script (sic), which you can find here:

CLOSE ON: PIPPIN ... desperately seeking reassurance.
PIPPIN
But we have the White Wizard. That's got to count for something.

GANDALF looks down at PIPPIN, he says nothing ...

PIPPIN (cont'd) (nervous) Gandalf?

GANDALF stares into the distance as if seeing something in his mind's eye.

INSERT IMAGE: A TOWERING, HOODED FIGURE, DRESSED in BLACK, is being dressed in ARMOUR by attendant ORCS ...

GANDALF V/0
Sauron has yet to reveal his deadliest servant. . . The one who will lead Mordor's armies in war, the one they say no living man can kill.

CLOSE ON: GANDALF still staring intently as if facing his enemy in .person.

GANDALF
The Witchking of Angmar . . .(he looks down at a startled PIPPIN) , .;
you've met him before . . .

ANGLE ON: PIPPIN looks up at GANDALF, afraid to ask . . .

GANDALF (cont'd) He stabbed Frodo on Weathertop.

INSERT IMAGE: FRODO screaming as the MORGUL BLADE is driven into his SHOULDER . . .

PIPPIN blanches at the MEMORY . . .

GANDALF ( cont'd ) He is the Lord of the Nazgul - the greatest of the nine . . .

EXT. MINAS MORGUL - NIGHT

GANDALF V/0
And Minas Morgul is his lair.

Many view the scene above with the Witch King as his 'powering up' moment. Note that Peter Jackson doesn't have Gandalf fretting about Sauron recovering the Ring, but about the coming battle and the Black Captain.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

Many view the scene above with the Witch King as his 'powering up' moment. Note that Peter Jackson doesn't have Gandalf fretting about Sauron recovering the Ring, but about the coming battle and the Black Captain.

Yes, I saw that scene multiple times. Gandalf doesn't say anything that we already don't know:

'Sauron has yet to reveal his deadliest servant' -- Yes, I believe we are all quite aware that the WiKi is Sauron's deadliest servant, particularly since Balrogs never seemed to take orders well from anyone except Morgoth.

'The one who will lead Mordor's armies in war' -- *Quickly scans WiKi's resume* Ah yes, Mr. WitchKing -- may I call you WiKi? -- it says here you led Sauron's ground forces out of Angmar and destroyed the Dunedain kingdoms of Eriador. Quite impressive! But WiKi, I have a note here regarding your lack of support for Sauron during the Numenorean invasion. You seem quite absent in the whole affair. I believe the note says 'up and ran away'. There are also several botched jobs more recently, like on Weathertop, at Bree, and at the Ford of Bruinen. I am afraid we'll have to start you off in janitorial services, as managerial positions are filled at present. You handle a mace quite well, how are you at a mop and bucket?

'the one they say no living man can kill' -- "They' being Glorfindel, of course, and Peter Jackson obviously did not read the Glorfindel quote thoroughly. It's what happens when one quickly scans a book while laying on a sofa eating a burrito.

'He is the Lord of the Nazgul - the greatest of the nine' -- Yes, I believe that was established early on in both the books and the movie. Nothing new to report.

'He stabbed Frodo on Weathertop' -- Again, PJ's attention to detail is staggering. I suppose that had to be reiterated for anyone who did not see the first movie. Please note also that in the fray Frodo came dangerously close to terminating WiKi with his Westernesse blade (not mentioned in the movie). And Aragorn chased the Nazgul off with a flaming fagot. And no, I am not referring to Legolas, but a fire brand or a bunch of sticks.

'He is the Lord of the Nazgul - the greatest of the nine' -- When in doubt, repeat for added emphasis and heightened...ummm...something or other.

Now -- strictly from the movie, mind you -- where does it say that the WiKi has been taking anabolic steroids and has become greater than a Maia, particularly since 1) Aragorn merely shrugs them off with a burning brand, 2) they get drowned by an Elf-maid who sounds like she has some throat congestion (or has been taking male hormones), 3) is chased off by Gandalf while rescuing Faramir, 4) eventually dies to a shield-maiden and a weak stab to the leg by an injured Hobbit (with no explanation of the efficacy of the blade he wields).

I am merely pointing out inconsistencies here. Y'all can believe what you wish.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Now -- strictly from the movie, mind you -- where does it say that the WiKi has been taking anabolic steroids and has become greater than a Maia

Strictly from the movie, what's a Maia?

particularly since 1) Aragorn merely shrugs them off with a burning brand, 2) they get drowned by an Elf-maid who sounds like she has some throat congestion (or has been taking male hormones), 3) is chased off by Gandalf while rescuing Faramir, 4) eventually dies to a shield-maiden and a weak stab to the leg by an injured Hobbit (with no explanation of the efficacy of the blade he wields).

But the Witch King did have a shiny new helmet, and that's gotta count for something. And the scene that I mentioned, did we read that Gandalf tells Pip that the deadliest servant, "Ain't no big thang..."?

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by alatar

From the movie script (sic), which you can find here: ...

I remember the scene a bit differently, although I admit this may not be exactly accurate...

CLOSE UP: PIPPIN ... desperately seeking reassurance.
PIPPIN
But we have the White Wizard. That's got to count for something.

GANDALF looks down at PIPPIN, he says nothing. He takes a puff from his pipe and starts coughing ...

PIPPIN (cont'd) (nervous) Gandalf?

GANDALF stares into the distance as if seeing something in his mind's eye. (*Cough, cough... wheeze...*)

GANDALF V/0
Sauron has yet (*cough, cough*) to reveal his deadliest (*cough, hack*) servant... Big Tobacco! (*Cough, hack, wheeze*)

[Sarumian]

Dealing with Gandalf's mortality we are touching a delicate subject. Tolkien is a Christian and the idea of God embodied in a person, who saves humanity, sharing his destiny with humans is a central point of Christianity. Tolkien as a creator doesn't dare to compete with Bible, but works out a different storyline, where not the Creator (Eru) himself, but rather some angelic beings experience something like this. Gandlf is one of them and while he suffers like a human, he knows what lies beyond death and he originally belongs to the world beyond Middle Earth.

This means his "death" is a sort of voluntary act rather then an inevitable end of being as it is the case for a human being. Even if his body had been tired and broken he could have staying alive until he decides 'that's it, I cant endure this anymore'. So, as I have already written, he couldn't be afraid of death, because death for him means return to Valinor.

I don't think we should underestimate WiKi. He was a serious chalenge for Gandalf. I believe Sauron could have made an idea of Gandalf the White's power after their personal encounter in the TT, when reserected wizard diverted the Dark Lord's attention from Frodo to himself, while he "sat in a high place and strove with the Dark Tower". So Sauron could prepare his best servant to fight against the White Wizard and supply him with a perilous enchanted weapon. What Wiki was showing to Gandalf was that he was no more afraid of fire, Gandalf's magic tool, ut was ready to use it himself. However, it couldn't be an easy task to get rid of Gandaf. I belive that the power and high spirit of Wiki's army made him stronger, as he belived, he could make an incredible pressure on Gandalf's state of mind, allowing others to kill the wizard. Well it didn't mean as well tht Gandalf was an easy tagert.