Imagine no religion

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I imagine that Tolkien - exactly because he was a devout Christian himself - somehow didn't feel it within his rights as a subcreator to 'make up' a religion for them; maybe he also felt it would lessen the dignity of his characters if he had them holding a plausibly pre-Christian 'pagan' belief that would have been contrary to what he himself held to be true.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I think it is partially given by the nature of the people, which stems from the abovementioned author's intention. We could simply say that the people of Middle-Earth do not have any basic "religious instinct" in themselves (in which, once again, Tolkien expresses the sort of ideal world for a Christian, where there is no inclination to make any gods for oneself and thus nothing to corrupt the eventual relation of anybody to the real god, resp. gods...

Good points and I tend to agree. This is probably it. T wanted his characters to be sort of 'noble savages', like say Aristotle. Bet there's a place in limbo for Aragorn and Frodo. Even it they obviously could not be Catholics, he didn't want them to be not Catholics either, if you get what I'm saying. To have the Gaffer ritually sacrificing a pig to gain favours from the fertility-gods in order to grow good taters wouldn't go down too well I guess, nor would Elrond the half-elven keeping a stall of lovely concubines.

And the "worship" of the Valar can be explained away too, like the quote Ibrin provided shows. I actually thought of the parallel before I read it too, but calling upon the Valar really is similar to how "a Catholic might call on a Saint, though no doubt knowing in theory as well as he that the power of the Vala was limited and derivative."

There's only one true religion in Middle Earth:

Originally Posted by JRRT quoted by Ibrin

Among the exiles, remnants of the Faithful who had not adopted the false religion nor taken part in the rebellion, religion as divine worship (though perhaps not as philosophy and metaphysics) seems to have played a small part; though a glimpse of it is caught in Faramir's remark on 'grace at meat.'

You can easily imagine how the wild peoples of the East and South are into idol worship and false gods though, couldn't you?

Originally Posted by Prince of the Halflings

Most of what we know about the beliefs or superstitions of prehistoric people relies on artifacts, cave paintings and evidence that they did things like bury their dead. Well, if we uncovered archeological evidence of the Rohirrim then we'd probably conclude that they did have religion, because they certainly buried their dead in a ritualistic ceremony (as did all the other cultures of Middle Earth, as far as I can tell).

Good point. And they seem to have believed in an afterlife too. From an inside perspective I think one might conclude that the Rohirrim actually did have a religion, although little of it is explicitly mentioned in the books.

Originally Posted by PotH

However, in Middle Earth people know that there actually are supernatural beings who helped to create and maintain the world! The people of Middle Earth don't need to hypothesise the existence of demi-gods and nature spirits - they know they exist! The Downfall of Numenor is just one of many examples of the existence of the Valar. Also, the Men of Middle Earth are aware of the existence of other intelligent races - one of which is immortal. Elves and Dwarves aren't just the stuff of folk stories in Middle Earth: they really exist. In other words, Middle Earth really isn't like our world in certain important ways.

Mm. I had similar thoughts too. But do they really, I'm thinking now? Which mortal in Middle Earth has actually seen one of the Valar or any supernatural entity at work? And no-one of the speaking peoples, not even Ingwe who sits at the feet of Manwe on Taniquetil, has come "face to face" with the one true God.

It is clear that in the Shire, and probably Rohan and Gondor too, things such as Dragons, Ents and immortal Elves are seen as fairy-tale stuff, rather than part of the real world they live and breath in. For the large majority, all they have is the stories to believe or not to believe in, just like us. Therefore, from an inside perspective, it is odd to say the least that they did not make up "false" religions.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

What is it that prompts Frodo to accept the burden of carrying the Ring? What is it that prompts Sam to accompany him? What helps Eowyn recover? I think this is a very interesting question to ask about Middle-earth

A Galadriel-quote springs to mind:

Originally Posted by ForR

Do not trouble your hearts overmuch with thought of the road tonight. Maybe the paths that you each shall tread are already laid before your feet, though you do not see them.

Originally Posted by Bb

Wisdom can also mean awareness to understand what is needful, and by that meaning, Frodo caps them all.

Agreed. This really is the core idea of the whole book, isn't it? What I meant to say is that Galadriel and Elrond, although they perhaps made mistakes in the past, certainly gets it in LotR, unlike Boromir, Denethor and so forth.

I tried to rep the thread but alas I haven't been generous enough since last I repped you.

Thanks. I had the same experience trying to rep a few people on this thread.

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=skip spence;622438]

Good point. And they seem to have believed in an afterlife too. From an inside perspective I think one might conclude that the Rohirrim actually did have a religion, although little of it is explicitly mentioned in the books.

QUOTE]

One thing that I have noticed that I don't think has been mentioned already is that that the Rohirrim use the word devilry and devil and I don't think I have noticed it elsewhere. Of course this may be more superstition than a facet of actual religion and it has been noted that they are superstitious and suspicious of elves and ents etc.


For the elves and Numenorean men the knowledge of the Valar means that their "religion" is very different to those who must rely on belief or faith.

As for Frodo, Bilbo and Sam - I have always thought that their passing oversea was to enable them to make a "good death" in Catholic terms - to die in a state of grace, reconciled to the strange fate of their mortal lives. I have always thought that it is is one of the most Catholic (in my understanding as a non-catholic) facets of the book that so many characters are given the chance to make their peace before they die - Thorin, Boromir get the chance to ask and receive forgiveness for their wrongs. Theoden makes a good death by his own lights in contrast to Denethor who takes the cowards way out. There is a clear distinction between not holding onto life too long and "cutting and running".

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by skip spence

T wanted his characters to be sort of 'noble savages', like say Aristotle.

*harrumph!* I have to object to hearing Aristotle called a savage, however noble! He probably was one of the most civilized men of his time; no paint and feathers on him! (Never mind though, I got your meaning.)

As for the Rohirrim and their afterlife - considering that they were modelled on the Anglo-Saxons (and, in their distant past, the Goths and other Germanic people), I wonder whether they expected to check into the Eternal Meadhall or ride with Béma's Hunt when they died; but the only glimpse of their views of that matter are Théoden's words in The King of the Golden Hall:

"I myself will go to war, to fall in the front of the battle, if it must be. Thus shall I sleep better."

[Lindolirian]

There's not a lot left to add to this discussion except this quote from Tolkien's Letter 142:

The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism. -Letters, pg. 172

Tolkien poured his being into his work and in order to understand it more fully, we must first understand who he was as a Catholic Englishman who had a fierce love for languages, myths, and symbolism. That last part he put in there about religion being absorbed into the story is the clearest understanding of why religion was hardly dealt with explicitly.

And here I must recommend an excellent book that delves into that very absorption. The Philosophy of Tolkien by Peter Kreeft. Go ahead and check out the table of contents; you can learn something even from that. Not only does it hash out how Tolkien's worldview is absorbed into his world, but it helps the reader understand why we've loved Middle Earth so much. And it's a fine introduction to philosophy in general for those of us who are lost when it comes to words like metaphysics and epistemology.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

It's interesting how the peoples of Middle Earth act with regard to the Valar and Eru. It us much less religious in many of the senses that are usually ascribed to it. Indeed, I often got the impression, especially from the fact that only Sauron ever builds a temple, that the peoples were against formalised forms of worship and religion. Odd thing for Tolkien, being Catholic, you might think.

More than that, though, it is the way in which the Valar or Eru are invoked speaks more of common superstition than of organised religious dogma. The Elves get closer to it in their reverence for Elbereth, I suppose. But more often than not, it is a case of the simple day-to-day little superstitions to which these gods have been put.

I always found this odd, again, given Tolkien's religious beliefs. However, I get the impression that Catholic ideology (with regard to worship and ceremony at least) was less important to him when writing the books of Middle Earth. He speaks much closer to a more primitive form of religion - a more naked and stripped down one in which the gods simply are.

Perhaps it is the line between the old Norse gods, the Celtic spirits and the gods of Catholicism that blur in this mythos. Therefore, the references become more vague with regard to how the peoples relate to them. Moreover, this being a new world built on somewhat different rules to the real world, to add in more details about religious practices would, I think, feel out of place in a work so focussed on action and peril. Sauron is a threat right now - there may be time for a short prayer, but nothing extravagant.

This is, I think, the raw essence of religion in ME, perhaps. The immediate, the peril and the small. Eru knows that the Valar cannot be counted on much for the big acts of salvation and epic battles - how long did it take them to decide to do anything about Melkor before the War of Wroth? How much convincing did they take?
More on this can, I think, be seen in the fact that the ways, other than catastrophic war, that the Valar have been known to interact with the children of Iluvatar. I don't have my Silm with me right now (I'll probably edit this with the appropriate quotes when I get home), but I seem to recall a line either in the Valaquenta, or Possibly Ainulindule telling us how Ulmo uses all the rivers of Arda to hear of the problems in ME and send what help he can at times.

This sparks another thought in me, actually.
There is a distinct difference in the way the children interact with the Valar before and after the exile of the Noldor. Before, it is a very intimate and close relationship with Ulmo physically pulling them to Valinor on an island, Aulë teaching the Noldor steel craft and so on. After the departure of Feanor and co. the Valar become cold and distant. Tolkien has remarked in interviews about how everyone in this mythology makes mistakes, even the gods.
The Elves and men go through the ages of war with Morgoth with little help from the Valar (the occasional cameo from Ulmo is always appreciated, though). Then, suddenly, they come in power and war, overthrow Angband and break the world apart.
One might think the peoples would have some kind of fear of the Valar who, after all, saved them at the price of the breaking of Middle Earth. Perhaps that is why they are not overly keen on direct intervention. "We just finished fixing it up, we don't want them trampling everything again!"

It's another interesting point that it is when a direct invocation of organised religion - Sauron's Temple in Numenor - the result is chaos and destruction. It seems that, after the flight of the Noldor, direct interaction with the gods and overtly religious practices have very negative effects. The small utterances and mini ceremonies are, perhaps, all the peoples dare try?

Forgive me if this is a disjointed and poor post. Been away from the Books forum for too long.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Lindolirian

And here I must recommend an excellent book that delves into that very absorption. The Philosophy of Tolkien by Peter Kreeft.

It is good to know that someone besides myself knows of Peter Kreeft!

"Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!"

As the passion of Christ is dimly echoed in the struggles of Tolkien’s three heroes, so the place of Mary in Catholic faith and piety is reflected in another key figure of Middle-earth: Galadriel, the elven Queen of Lothlórien. Tolkien himself explicitly acknowledged this connection, observing in a letter to a friend, "I think it is true that I owe much of this character to Christian and Catholic teaching and imagination about Mary." In another letter he remarked that it is upon our Lady that "all my own small perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded."

Once again, this isn’t to say that Galadriel is an allegorical representation of the Blessed Virgin, any more than Frodo or Gandalf or Aragorn are direct representations of Christ. The actual relationship is more subtle: In imagining a glorious and immortal Queen of a paradaisical realm, and in depicting the devotion of others to her, Tolkien could hardly help drawing on the actual devotion in his religious tradition to a glorified Queen of a divine realm.

Indeed, in being drawn to create such a character in the first place, Tolkien’s imagination was informed and fired by his faith and piety. Had he been, for instance, a Southern Baptist, or a Dutch Calvinist, doubtless Galadriel either would never have existed at all, or would at any rate have been an entirely different figure.

It’s in the devotion she inspires, most especially in the dwarf Gimli, that Galadriel’s Marian resonances are most apparent. Gimli’s heart belongs to his immortal Queen as unreservedly as the heart of St. Louis de Montford or St. Maximillian Kolbe to the Queen of Heaven, and through Gimli the reader, even the non-Catholic or non-Christian reader, has a kind of window into the world of such devotion.

Galadriel is not the only elven Queen with Marian associations. The elvish hymns sung in praise of Elbereth resonate with Marian hymnody; a number of writers have observed similarities between the following lines of Tolkien’s poetry and a well-known Marian hymn Tolkien would have known from childhood.

Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!
O Queen beyond the Western seas!
O light to us that wander here
Amid the world of woven trees!…
O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy starlight on the Western seas.

Note the themes common to these lines and those that follow (the singer as wanderer in a remote land; the far-off Queen as a source of light and guidance; the repeated association of the Queen with starlight and the sea):

Hail, Queen of Heaven, the ocean star,
Guide of the wand’rer here below:
Thrown on life’s surge, we claim thy care -
Save us from peril and from woe.
Mother of Christ, star of the sea,
Pray for the wanderer, pray for me.

These ethereal queens aren’t the books’ only elvish element with specifically Catholic resonance. The "waybread" or lembas of the Elves, given to the members of the Fellowship in Lothlórien, has clear eucharistic overtones. "Wafers" (Tolkien’s word) of this extraordinary food, we read, had a virtue without which [Frodo and Sam] would long ago have lain down to die. It did not satisfy desire, and at times Sam’s mind was filled with the memories of food, and the longing for simple bread and meats. And yet this waybread of the Elves had a potency that increased as travellers relied on it alone and did not mingle it with other foods. It fed the will, and it gave strength to endure, and to master sinew and limb beyond the measure of mortal kind.

[skip spence]

I repped that post in my half-slumber, Groin, as I thought it was well written. A bit too good was my second thought. You didn't actually write it, did you?

[Groin Redbeard]

I thank you for your rep; however, I have to say that I was surprised by receiving it. I expected to receive a chorus of bored groans instead of questioning. Nothing that I have written is not self evident to a Catholic enthusiast of Tolkien-- in fact, I thought that the bit about the Lembas as eucharistic and Galadriel as Mary was known to just about everyone who has touched on Tolkien's Catholicism.

All these themes are touched on in Bradly Birzer's "Sanctifying Myth" and Peter Kreeft's "The Philosophy of Tolkien."

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I repped that post in my half-slumber, Groin, as I thought it was well written. A bit too good was my second thought. You didn't actually write it, did you?

That makes two of us. Anyway, while Groin's points as such weren't actually new to me, he presented them well and gave some good examples of how exactly the religious symbolism was 'absorbed into the narrative', which is quite enough to make his post repworthy for me.
If I may take the Marian associations a little further (and maybe into not quite uncontroversial territory - WARNING: purely personal statement coming!):
There has been much debate on these Downs about the influence of both Tolkien's Catholic faith and his infatuation with pagan mythologies on the shaping of his Legendarium; and it just occured to me that, whether he was consciously aware of this or not, his devotion to Our Lady may be one of the points where the two influences are most easily reconciled - as in the figure of Mary (not the meek virgin and handmaiden, but the Queen of Heaven and ocean star, to use Groin's lovely quote) much of the best of ancient pagan Goddess worship has been absorbed into Christianity. Or to rephrase it from the opposite perspective: Tolkien's worship of Mary (and its reflections in the characters of Galadriel and Elbereth) is something that makes his (or any) Catholicism palatable to unregenerate heathens like myself. However much we may disagree about the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, we can both bow our knees to Our Lady (and who's to say we don't actually mean the same person?)...