If Denethor hadn't committed suicide

[Morwen]

^^ With respect to why no one in Rohan would recognise Aragorn, Appendix B notes that Aragorn as Thorongil served in disguise Thengel and Ecthelion between the years 2957 and 2980 of the Third Age. The next time that he returns to Rohan, at least in an open fashion, is 3019. That's a 39 year gap. Many of the Rohirrim who served with Thorongil have likely either died of old age or in battle. For those who are old enough to remember a person called Thorongil, it is unlikely that they would associate someone Aragorn who appears to be in his prime with another man they had known forty years and more ago. As far as they are concerned Thorongil should either be dead or an old old man.

With respect to the topic at hand I agree with Formendacil's reasoning. Denethor's line about Aragorn coming from a house long bereft of lordship and dignity makes it difficult for me to see him ever being reconciled to Aragorn as his king. He also makes a distinction between himself as a Steward of the House of Anarion and Aragorn who "(e)ven were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur." (The Pyre of Denethor, RotK) Clearly Denethor's position is the longstanding Gondorian one that Isildur and his heirs long ago gave up any right to the throne of Gondor. All of this combined with a personal animosity towards Thorongil/Aragorn makes reconciliation unlikely.

- Cross posted with Inziladun -

[Erendis]

I generally agree with both Inziladun and Morwen ,but still would like to make some adds.


Question 1.

Concerning the existence or not of Isildur's bloodline,for someone as well-educated as Denethor there must have been somes clues in the records of Ondoher's time about Aranarth,since he was the grand-son og the Gondorian king,afterall.

Question 3.

Concerning the term "disguise",I think it was not a physical one,because unless he could have his entire face hidden,indeed everything on Aragorn was not only crying"Numenorian blood",but also "Nobble Numenorian blood".I believe a shady and rumor-like story concerning his origins is more likely to be the disguise,more similar to the "undercover" term.Perhaps stories as ,for example,half Numenorian from the North(Dail maybe?),being spread around the soldiers with his consent,if not willingly by him,is a scenario.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Concerning the term "disguise",I think it was not a physical one,because unless he could have his entire face hidden,indeed everything on Aragorn was not only crying"Numenorian blood",but also "Nobble Numenorian blood".I believe a shady and rumor-like story concerning his origins is more likely to be the disguise,more similar to the "undercover" term.Perhaps stories as ,for example,half Numenorian from the North(Dail maybe?),being spread around the soldiers with his consent,if not willingly by him,is a scenario.

Why not a physical disguise? Perhaps he grew a long beard.
Deceiving the Rohirrim would not have been so difficult anyway. If they recognised Thorongil as a Dúnadan, their assumtion would probably have been that he was of Gondor.
When dealing with the Men of Gondor, I think a physical disguise would have been a necessity, for the reasons you cite. If they knew Thorongil was not from Gondor, yet recognised in him Númenórean lineage, wouldn't that have been counter to Aragorn's purpose in going to Gondor in that manner? He wished to see the state of affairs in Rohan and Minas Tirith, and give the rulers in both places some good advice, once he gained their trust. He did not want to stir any controversy.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Why not a physical disguise? Perhaps he grew a long beard.

No wonder why Arwen gave in after he left Gondor!
But why would he cause controversy by not hiding he was of Numenorian lineage?Whould he have been the first or last offspring of a mixed couple-although since the Kin-strife it might have been a taboo,so many years after that almost none would have been bothered-?Didn't Gondor have merchants?Travelers?How impossible scenario is a wanderer son wanting to serve his ancestors' lands?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Erendis

But why would he cause controversy by not hiding he was of Numenorian lineage?Whould he have been the first or last offspring of a mixed couple-although since the Kin-strife it might have been a taboo,so many years after that almost none would have been bothered-?Didn't Gondor have merchants?Travelers?How impossible scenario is a wanderer son have wants to serve his ancestors' lands?

It seems to me that all the remaining Dúnedain in Middle-earth were confined to two areas: Eriador and Gondor. If Aragorn had been known to have been of the Dúnedain, where could he reasonably have said that he came from, if not the North? If he claimed to be from 'outside' and was obviously Númeórean by looks, I think that would have raised some questions.
If he claimed anywhere in Gondor as his origin, that claim could have been investigated. I can well see Denethor 'checking Thorongil's references', perhaps with the hope of catching him in a lie.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If he claimed anywhere in Gondor as his origin, that claim could have been investigated. I can well see Denethor 'checking Thorongil's references', perhaps with the hope of catching him in a lie.

Perhaps Denethor did search Gondor...

...and that's why he was extra-suspicious of Thorongil's origins, when no one else seems to have been. And what could Denethor make of it, if Thorongil was from the North? That's no reason not to serve Gondor or be untrustworthy... but, if Denethor's suspicions were right, and Thorongil was making a play for the throne, revealing that he was Arnorian might be the first step to Thorongil revealing he was the Heir of Isildur. Far better, in such a case, to abet the idea that Thorongil was from an obscure corner of Gondor--Andrast, maybe--than to put the idea in people's heads that Thorongil could actually supplant him.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If he claimed to be from 'outside' and was obviously Númeórean by looks, I think that would have raised some questions.

Would it?I think that the beloved Thorongilya was not the most open to questions around,especially when we see that if he wanted something to be kept secret,he wouldn't reveal it for any reason.In fact,not even Ecthelion,whom he respected so much,having a clear identity of his true origins would be a surprise to me.

And miraculously,for once again we do not regard to the main subgect of the thread!

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It seems to me that all the remaining Dúnedain in Middle-earth were confined to two areas: Eriador and Gondor. If Aragorn had been known to have been of the Dúnedain, where could he reasonably have said that he came from, if not the North? If he claimed to be from 'outside' and was obviously Númeórean by looks, I think that would have raised some questions.
If he claimed anywhere in Gondor as his origin, that claim could have been investigated. I can well see Denethor 'checking Thorongil's references', perhaps with the hope of catching him in a lie.

Denethor certainly had suspicious about Thorongil and he must have wondered where he came from. Since I raised the question about Aragorn's "obviously Numenorean appearance" I will add that I don't just mean Aragorn's hair, skin or eye colour but also his height. He was extremely tall.

One reason why Aragorn can't have had much of a physical disguise is that his resemblance to Denethor was noted at the time. Given that Aragorn played the part of Thorongil for 23 years, it's hard to think that he could have maintained a physical disguise for that long! I think the "disguise" just refers to his assumed name and background.

I can understand why a young fellow like Eomer doesn't recognise Aragorn, since he wasn't born in the time of "Thorongil". Even Theoden was fairly young at the time but in Gondor some people were relatively long-lived.

Outside of Minas Tirith, Gondor was fairly sparsely populated. Aside from Pelagir and Dol Amroth there weren't many major 'population centres'. Aragorn wasn't blonde-haired or blue-eyed so he would have had a hard time passing himself off as one of the Rohirrim! Clearly he was Numenorean - so not from Rohan or Laketown etc. Denethor (and for that matter Ecthelion) must have had a pretty good idea of where Thorongil was from. Thorongil's championing of Gandalf might have been another indicator, since Gandalf spent most of his time in the North. Perhaps some rumours of the Northern Dunedain were heard in Gondor, but Aragorn must have been the first proof of their existence, unless one of his more recent ancestors had also spent time in Gondor.

As for the original question - I suspect that Aragorn would have been very sensitive to Denethor's feelings. Perhaps he might have come up with some way for Denethor to save face? Maybe Denethor would have accepted some role like "Prince of Ithilien". Aragorn would have no doubt tried as hard as possible for Denethor to retain his dignity and usefulness. Otherwise Denethor would just have become a thorn in Aragorn's side - a bitter old man with little to live for since he would regard King Elessar as an upstart who had robbed the rightful family of their legacy.

[Formendacil]

One thing that is worth noting is that as late at the Fell Winter in 2911-12, a mere 19 years before Aragorn's birth, there continued to be a settlement at Tharbad. Unlike the general population of the surviving Arnorian Rangers, this settlement on the Greenway to Bree would have been more publicly known, and any traders between there and Rohan and Gondor would have passed that way.

Given that Tharbad was almost certainly a Númenorean settlement, or at least mixed including those of Númenorean blood--possibly also those of Bree/Dunlendish ethnicity, it isn't that strange from a Rohirric or Gondorian perspective to encounter Thorongil as a Númenorean stranger out of the North. Possibly, they might think, he would be ignorant of his ancestral origins, and unlikely to be as "pure blooded" as a Gondorian (remember that business with Eldacar? He looked and acted like a pure Númenorean, but that wasn't good enough for Gondor--he was halfblood and they knew it)--but hardly all that odd. A rarity, to be sure, but not unexpected.

I'm coming to the conclusion that it would not be strange at all from the Gondorian perspective to learn there were some descendants with Númenorean blood in the North. This was not Aragorn's secret. The secret, rather, was that the Line of Isildur persisted, and that the legal structure of Arnor had not ended in the aftermath of Arvedui, but persisted in the paramilitary Rangers and their unknown guard on Bree and the Shire (and their own settlements in the Angle, and, earlier, Tharbad). Aragorn's secret was not that he was Arnorian, but that there was still an Arnor and that he was its chieftain.

[Morwen]

The word "disguise" does seem to indicate some change in physical appearance. To merely change your name and give someone a phony backstory about yourself seems to me the actions of some who wishes to be incognito not "in disguise". The disguise need not be that radical. It does not mean that Aragorn had to cease to look like someone with Numenorean blood. The idea could simply be to alter his appearance enough so that on the off chance that someone from Gondor or farther afield had ever seen Aragorn they would not think that Thorongil was the same person.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Question 1.

Concerning the existence or not of Isildur's bloodline,for someone as well-educated as Denethor there must have been some clues in the records of Ondoher's time about Aranarth,since he was the grand-son of the Gondorian king, after all.

About this... I don't think at all that it would have been unlikely at all for Denethor to have gone through the annals of Eärnil and Eärnur's day to know that Aranarth, son of Arvedui, still lived and headed the remnants of the Northern Dúnedain--it's just that with the waning and vanishing of those remnants in the north, why should anyone assume that an unbroken lineage remained? After all, your default assumption as a Gondorian might be that lineages naturally fail--it happened to them a few times. Additionally, the White Tree which continued to live all through the years of the Stewards after Mardil finally died in 2852, at the end of the Stewardship of Belecthor II. To the Gondorian mind at this time, there will never again be a king. Boromir--hopes of being the next Steward aside--should be taken as a typical Gondorian at the Council of Elrond:

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond

'I was not sent to beg any boon, but to seek only the meanings of a riddle,' answered Boromir proudly. 'Yet we are hard pressed, and the Sword of Elendil would be a help beyond our hope--if such a thing could indeed return out of the shadows of the past.' He looked at Aragorn and there was doubt in his eyes.

--Emphasis mine.

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond

'Isildur's Bane is found, you say,' said Boromir. 'I have seen a bright ring in the Halfling's hand; but Isildur perished ere this age of the world began, they say. How do the Wise know this ring is his? And how has it passed down the years, until it is brought hither by so strange a messenger?'

Boromir's question here refers to the Ring, but because of the mention of Isildur, it struck me as appropriate to quote, because he has exactly the same doubts about Aragorn and Isildur's lineage. It is only over the course of the next Book, until his death, that he comes to accept Aragorn fully. And why should he? It's been a millennium since Eärnur returned from the North--victorious over the Witch-King, a brief glimmer of hope in the mid-Third Age before he rode off to Minas Morgûl, never to be seen again. Even granting the longer Númenorean lifespan, which was waning much anyway in that millennium, that's still like someone coming forward today as the Heir of Edmund II Ironside--and out of the wild north, too, not out of a millennium of increasing records and technological certainty, but the complete opposite.

The fact that Denethor thought in the first place that Aragorn might be of Isildur's line and a kingly claimant, on those grounds, can be presented then as proof of his insight and wisdom, in my opinion.