If Denethor hadn't committed suicide

[Erendis]

Wasn't it Sam who said the Southerlings are black with white tongues or something like that?

Yes,yes,I can see that picture!Aragorn with black leather's dye on his face and a white tongue!
If only cameras and tabloids were invented in Middle-Earth,Denethor would have ensured stewardship for at least another Age.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

You have to remember that when JRRT wrote LOTR he could get away with many references, like "swarthy men" and "swertings" that would be deemed racist today.

[Erendis]

I never wished to say or imply anything racistic about black skin-in fact,since my people are generally rather tanned,I am rather fond to it.

The fun part is the whole image of the fake colour and the I-have-no-idea-who-he-could-make-it white tongue.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

The fact that you felt you had to respond defensively highlights how touchy we all are about the subject - relax !

[Erendis]

I am perfectly relaxed.
I just don't want to leave any of my comments having a racistic implication.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Wasn't it Sam who said the Southerlings are black with white tongues or something like that?

Without being able to pinpoint the exact quote (and I've just checked about every entry for 'Swertings', 'Haradrim' and 'Southrons' in the LotR index), I think it actually says black with white teeth and red tongues - which could be seen as a racist caricature, if you're so inclined (although we all have red tongues and more or less white teeth - less in the case of die-hard smokers like yours truly).
Anyway, if anybody could be accused of racism on the basis of this quote, it would be Tolkien himself, not any of the posters on this thread; and as for him, I think he can be defended against this accusation (i.e. of racism in the sense of advocating supremacy of one race over another, which is not saying that racial stereotypes didn't occasionally occur in his thinking & writing) with good arguments, but this is not the thread to open that can of worms.
To get back on topic (well, sort offish), the very fact that Aragorn gave himself an Elvish name like Thorongil would be an indicator not only of Númenorean, but of Gondorian or Arnorian descent, - in my knowledge, no other Mannish people used the Elven tongues in naming; certainly not the Black Númenoreans, who, being descended from the King's Men, had abandoned the Elven languages for Adûnaic back before the Drowning.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

To get back on topic (well, sort offish), the very fact that Aragorn gave himself an Elvish name like Thorongil would be an indicator not only of Númenorean, but of Gondorian or Arnorian descent, - in my knowledge, no other Mannish people used the Elven tongues in naming; certainly not the Black Númenoreans, who, being descended from the King's Men, had abandoned the Elven languages for Adûnaic back before the Drowning.

Ah, but was Thorongil the name he gave himself, or a name that was applied to him by others?

In much that [Ecthelion] did he had the aid and advice of a great captain whom he loved above all. Thorongil men called him in Gondor, the Eagle of the Star, for he was swift and keen-eyed, and wore a silver star upon his cloak; but no one knew his true name nor in what land he was born.

ROTK Appendix A

That gives the impression he was given the name 'Thorongil' as a reflection of men's observations about him. They had to call him something, after all.

I don't recall any mention of whether he was called Thorongil in Rohan.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

( less in the case of die-hard smokers like yours truly).

I would call them almond-white. See?(and in real life,I cannot bear even the smell of smoke,just for trivia)

Getting back to the point,I agree with Inziladun.It also sounds quite strange to me for someone to five himself a name about his sharp gaze and silver jewel.An indication of vanity,which for certain Aragorn lacked of,considering his modest character,don't you think?

[Faramir Jones]

Nice to see that I started an interesting, long discussion!

I was interested to see what Inziladun said here:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

What would Aragorn's response to Denethor pressing him on that have been? Perhaps something like 'The time was not yet right, Lord
Steward. I myself was not ready for the burden, nor had I yet earned it'. I suspect though, that no fair words or deeds on Aragorn's part would have reconciled Denethor to the idea of relinquishing his power and watching Aragorn
rule.

Aragorn, as Thorongil, sent a message to Ecthelion II when he left Gondor, after defeating the Corsairs of Umbar:

'Other tasks now call me, lord, and much time and many perils must pass, ere I come again to Gondor, if that be my fate.'

The big problem would be why he didn't stay to help Gondor, which was getting near its time of greatest need. Yes, Aragorn did return, but at a particular time that happened, by a remarkable coincidence, to be one most favourable to him claiming the kingship. You can see why Denethor was suspicious that Aragorn and Gandalf were plotting to put the latter on the throne of Gondor.

Also, Denethor's distrust of any other peoples, apart from his allies of Rohan, was based on a very good reason. What proper help had any of those other peoples given Gondor in the last number of centuries? Even if they couldn't give much military assistance, intelligence reports would have been useful.

There's also the fact that Elrond, when calling his council to decide on the fate of the Ring, made no effort to contact Denethor to send an envoy. (I know there was a vision that prompted Boromir to volunteer to go to Rivendell; but Elrond wasn't aware of that.) Surely the ruler of the main state opposed to Sauron was someone who should have been consulted?

It's been pointed out, including by Formendacil, that Denethor despised Aragorn II's claim, calling him 'the last of a ragged house, long bereft of lordship and dignity'. While this was probably his true feeling, not just the product of his madness, I believe that this was probably shared by many Gondorians for generations.

As we know, Elendil ruled Arnor, with his sons Isildur and Anárion ruling Gondor, but accepting their father as overlord. With Anárion's death in the War of the Last Alliance, Isildur went north to take up the rule of Arnor, with his three eldest sons, and gave Gondor to be ruled by his nephew Meneldil, Anárion's son, the last of those born in Númenor before the Downfall to survive that event.

When Isildur and his three eldest sons went north, they and their army were attacked and killed by orcs in the Battle of the Gladden Fields in 2 Third Age. The only survivor of that branch of the family was Isildur's youngest son, Valandil, who had been born in Rivendell. Due to his youth, his mother acting as regent for eight years, he made no attempt to assert overlordship over Gondor. One can presume that Meneldil would not have accepted overlordship from a younger cousin who had succeeded in such circumstances.

While Gondor flourished for centuries, Arnor diminished. In 861 T.A., after the death of King Eärendur of Arnor, the kingdom was divided among his three sons. While the line of Valandil survived in the Kings of Arthedain, who later claimed lordship over all Arnor, Arthedain was conquered by Angmar in the reign of Arvedui, though something was retrieved with help sent from Gondor.

Arvedui had married Fíriel, daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor; and he made a claim to the throne of Gondor in 1944 T.A., after Ondoher and his sons died in battle with the Wainriders. The claim was in his own right as a descendant of Isildur, and in right of his wife, as last child of Ondoher. But the Council of Gondor refused this claim, saying that the succession was restricted to male, male-line descendants of Meneldil son of Anárion, instead offering the throne to Eärnil, a victorious general who had the appropriate line of descent.

It appears that they also did so on the grounds that the monarchs of Isildur's line were a line of losers, who had proved themselves incapable of holding on to their kingdom. The personal dislike of Meneldil to accept his cousin's overlordship had become a matter of policy.

This was also shown later, after Eärnur, the last King of Gondor, was captured, and the throne left vacant. There was no one of the line of Anárion who had an undisputed claim; so it was decided to let the Stewards rule Gondor as hereditary regents, which they did down to Faramir. It is interesting that there was no move to locate any descendants of Isildur, now reduced to being Chieftains of the Dúnedain. Perhaps it was Gondorian prejudice against a group of people, all of whom seemed to have done nothing except to reproduce and hold on to some family heirlooms, and who had not shown any ability to properly rule a kingdom.

Aragorn II was well aware of this, and knew that while his lineage made him a viable candidate for the throne of Gondor, he would not be a serious candidate unless he proved himself, such as through a tremendous military victory over Gondor's enemies, as Eärnil II had done.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Nice to see that I started an interesting, long discussion!

I was just thinking the same thing myself - well done!

It's been pointed out, including by Formendacil, that Denethor despised Aragorn II's claim, calling him 'the last of a ragged house, long bereft of lordship and dignity'. While this was probably his true feeling, not just the product of his madness, I believe that this was probably shared by many Gondorians for generations.

One reason why I was initially pessimistic about Denethor's prospects once Aragorn pushed for the kingship was Denethor's madness. The guy is seriously depressed and just isn't seeing things clearly.

Sure, after the defeat of Sauron he might see the error of his ways - but there is another possibility:

Perhaps Aragorn can heal Denethor's madness.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Perhaps Aragorn can heal Denethor's madness.

Possibly, though I think it would have been Aragorn's biggest test since Frodo's knife-wound by the Witch-king.
The question there is whether Denethor would have allowed Aragorn the chance. After all, that would have put Denethor in Aragorn's debt, wouldn't it? And I really doubt that's a position that would have been acceptable to Denethor.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The question there is whether Denethor would have allowed Aragorn the chance. After all, that would have put Denethor in Aragorn's debt, wouldn't it? And I really doubt that's a position that would have been acceptable to Denethor.

Moreover, for Denethor to do that, he would first have to acknowledge his need for healing, i.e. recognize his condition as madness - which is something mentally deranged people are rarely able to.
But supposing for argument's sake Aragorn got a chance, how would such a healing have to be accomplished? Some fragrance of athelas and laying on of hands wouldn't be sufficient in Denethor's case, I'm afraid. As I see it, the core of his problem was that he felt he had failed in his duty both as a father and as a steward - his sons were one dead one dying, and his city was about to be taken by the enemy. Being the person Tolkien described him to be, as exemplified by his view of himself as the main opponent of Sauron, he naturally took the blame for these desasters on himself (where part of it belonged, but by far not all); for Denethor, to say "The West has failed" was more or less synonymous with "I have failed (and all I've ever stood for)" - and he couldn't (or wouldn't, which is the same in other words) go on living with the knowledge of this failure. It wouldn't do to tell him "Well yes, you failed, but it's OK." He would have to be convinced that he hadn't actually failed - that, like Frodo on Mount Doom, he had endured to the limits of his ability and couldn't be blamed for breaking down under stress too great for him; which means he for his part would have to acknowledge both having limits in the first place, and that the situation had gone beyond his limits, without feeling intolerable shame. I have a hard time picturing Denethor being able to adjust his self-image like that.

Great topic indeed, Faramir! When I first saw it, I thought it was a classical case of what I like to call IMGH4WSBAO (If My Granny Had 4 Wheels She'd Be An Omnibus), but if you think about it, it's a good opportunity to delve a little into Denethor's character - one of the more complex in LotR, and too often misrepresented *coughPJ'smoviescough*.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The question there is whether Denethor would have allowed Aragorn the chance.

How true!
I can actually picture the scene:
Denethor wakes up in the Houses of Healing,Faramir,who was sitting next to him all these days stands up in joy,tells him something like"Father,blessed be the day the King came back to us!For by his hand was the shadow of the Enemy remooved from you."
Denethor stands up frustrated,paying no attention to Faramir.Just in time,Aragorn enters the room to see how fares the Steward.Denethorr turns to him,raises his finger and explodes"How dare you heal me without my permission,you last heir of lessen house!"

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

There's also the fact that Elrond, when calling his council to decide on the fate of the Ring, made no effort to contact Denethor to send an envoy. (I know there was a vision that prompted Boromir to volunteer to go to Rivendell; but Elrond wasn't aware of that.) Surely the ruler of the main state opposed to Sauron was someone who should have been consulted?

If I may quibble here, a bit, Elrond didn't so much "call" a council as people just showed up. At least, such was the case with the representatives of the Dwarves and Mirkwood. Glóin was sent to find out what to do about Bilbo and Moria... and Legolas was sent to report Gollum missing. At least Gondor had a representative, by happenstance--of all the places you'd think Elrond would have called on, Lórien should have headed the list, but no one from there--Círdan was represented, but--here too, it's a coincidence:

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond

... and with him was Galdor, an Elf from the Grey Havens who had come on an errand from Círdan the Shipwright.

My point, I guess, is that one can't really read anything into who was represented at the Council of Elrond--at least not from the intentions of Elrond. Eru, maybe...