If Denethor hadn't committed suicide

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Nice to see that I started an interesting, long discussion!

I was just thinking the same thing myself - well done!

It's been pointed out, including by Formendacil, that Denethor despised Aragorn II's claim, calling him 'the last of a ragged house, long bereft of lordship and dignity'. While this was probably his true feeling, not just the product of his madness, I believe that this was probably shared by many Gondorians for generations.

One reason why I was initially pessimistic about Denethor's prospects once Aragorn pushed for the kingship was Denethor's madness. The guy is seriously depressed and just isn't seeing things clearly.

Sure, after the defeat of Sauron he might see the error of his ways - but there is another possibility:

Perhaps Aragorn can heal Denethor's madness.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Perhaps Aragorn can heal Denethor's madness.

Possibly, though I think it would have been Aragorn's biggest test since Frodo's knife-wound by the Witch-king.
The question there is whether Denethor would have allowed Aragorn the chance. After all, that would have put Denethor in Aragorn's debt, wouldn't it? And I really doubt that's a position that would have been acceptable to Denethor.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The question there is whether Denethor would have allowed Aragorn the chance. After all, that would have put Denethor in Aragorn's debt, wouldn't it? And I really doubt that's a position that would have been acceptable to Denethor.

Moreover, for Denethor to do that, he would first have to acknowledge his need for healing, i.e. recognize his condition as madness - which is something mentally deranged people are rarely able to.
But supposing for argument's sake Aragorn got a chance, how would such a healing have to be accomplished? Some fragrance of athelas and laying on of hands wouldn't be sufficient in Denethor's case, I'm afraid. As I see it, the core of his problem was that he felt he had failed in his duty both as a father and as a steward - his sons were one dead one dying, and his city was about to be taken by the enemy. Being the person Tolkien described him to be, as exemplified by his view of himself as the main opponent of Sauron, he naturally took the blame for these desasters on himself (where part of it belonged, but by far not all); for Denethor, to say "The West has failed" was more or less synonymous with "I have failed (and all I've ever stood for)" - and he couldn't (or wouldn't, which is the same in other words) go on living with the knowledge of this failure. It wouldn't do to tell him "Well yes, you failed, but it's OK." He would have to be convinced that he hadn't actually failed - that, like Frodo on Mount Doom, he had endured to the limits of his ability and couldn't be blamed for breaking down under stress too great for him; which means he for his part would have to acknowledge both having limits in the first place, and that the situation had gone beyond his limits, without feeling intolerable shame. I have a hard time picturing Denethor being able to adjust his self-image like that.

Great topic indeed, Faramir! When I first saw it, I thought it was a classical case of what I like to call IMGH4WSBAO (If My Granny Had 4 Wheels She'd Be An Omnibus), but if you think about it, it's a good opportunity to delve a little into Denethor's character - one of the more complex in LotR, and too often misrepresented *coughPJ'smoviescough*.

[Faramir Jones]

I'm glad that you like the topic, Pitchwife!

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Great topic indeed, Faramir! When I first saw it, I thought it was a classical case of what I like to call IMGH4WSBAO (If My Granny Had 4 Wheels She'd Be An Omnibus), but if you think about it, it's a good opportunity to delve a little into Denethor's character - one of the more complex in LotR, and too often misrepresented *coughPJ'smoviescough*.

Mentioning that film's portrayal of Denethor brought back some very bad memories! It was even worse than Jackson's earlier portrayal of Faramir!

[Faramir Jones]

Fellow fans and Downers might like to know, that Denethor was originally not going to be as harsh with Faramir for letting Frodo and Sam go on to Mordor with the Ring, as was portrayed in LotR. According to an earlier draft of the chapter 'The Siege of Gondor', this was what he said in response to Faramir's question, 'Do you wish then that our places had been exchanged?':

'Yes, I wish that indeed,' said Denethor. 'Or no.' And then he shook his head, and rising swiftly he laid his hand upon his son's bowed head. 'Do not judge me harshly, my son,' he said quietly, 'or believe me more harsh than I am. I know your brother well also. Love is not blind. I could wish that Boromir had been at Henneth Annûn when this thing came there, only if I had been sure of one thing.'

'Sure of what, my father?'

'That he was as strong in heart and selfless as you, my son. That taking this thing he would have brought it here and surrendered it, and not fallen swiftly under its thraldom. For, Faramir - and you too Míthrandir, amid all your wide webs and policies - there is a third way, that is neither the folly of wizards nor the lust of warriors....' (The History of Middle-earth: VIII. The War of the Ring, p. 332.)

Tolkien then made this note to explain why this portrayal must be changed:

The early conversation of Faramir and his father and motives must be altered. Denethor must be harsh. He must say he did wish Boromir had been at Henneth Annûn - for he would have been loyal to his father and brought him the Ring. (Gandalf may correct this.) Faramir grieved but patient. Then Denethor must be all for holding Osgiliath 'like Boromir did', while Faramir (and Gandalf?) are against it, using the arguments previously given to Denethor. At length in submission, but proudly, to please his father and show him that not only Boromir was brave [he] accepts the command at Osgiliath. Men in the City do not like it.

This will not only be truer to previous situation, but will explain Denethor's breaking up when Faramir is brought back dying, as it seems.(Ibid., p. 333.)

[Sarumian]

Ok, let me make up something in

IMGH4WSBAO

style.

Would you like such an alternative script?

While saving Faramir, Gandalf sends Denethor into sleep and orders the guards to take both of them to the Houses Of Healing. There both are treated by Aragorn, who leaves before they become conscious. When Denethor wakes up the battle is well over, he learns the news and accepts the order to remain in the Houses till he is fine. He looks sad and tired, though he is glad to see Faramir alive.

He is also glad to learn about Faramir's love to Eowyn. He tells Faramir, he is no longer able to rule Gondor and if by a small chance the war is won he will resign. He wants to see his grandchildren though they are not going to rule the country. Nothing more is said about Aragorn and possible outcome of the war.

One of the warriors who have retaken Cair Andros returns to Gondor with some information. Denethor realises that the army should have reached Morannon about that time. He looks fine, so he is allowed out of the Houses of Healing. He comes to the White Tower and asks a guard to give him a key of the small room. Gandalf had forbidden anyone to enter it, but Gandalf is far away and Denethor is still a Steward; he receives the key and looks into the Palantir. He finds the army of the West at Morannon Gates, sees how the fight starts and then goes further into Modor and reaches Barad-dur. Sauron is eager to find out if the Ring is really with Aragorn, so he turns his attention to Palantir. Denethor doesn't answer but engages Sauron into some sort of mental duel, partly distracting him from both Frodo and the battle. When Frodo claims the Ring, Sauron abandons Denethor. The latter walks into the hall, holding the Palantir. In his chair Denethor watches the fall of Barad-dur and dies. Faramir and Eowyn find him dead with Plalantir still in his hands; the hands are burnt. Since then Palantir shows nothing but two old burnt hands...

Honestly, I started thinking of "healing" even before PrinceOfTheHalflings' post...

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The question there is whether Denethor would have allowed Aragorn the chance.

How true!
I can actually picture the scene:
Denethor wakes up in the Houses of Healing,Faramir,who was sitting next to him all these days stands up in joy,tells him something like"Father,blessed be the day the King came back to us!For by his hand was the shadow of the Enemy remooved from you."
Denethor stands up frustrated,paying no attention to Faramir.Just in time,Aragorn enters the room to see how fares the Steward.Denethorr turns to him,raises his finger and explodes"How dare you heal me without my permission,you last heir of lessen house!"

[Pitchwife]

Sarumian, my problem with your scenario is that I don't see Denethor's madness as some external 'shadow of the Enemy' (although Sauron certainly did much to fuel it) that could be removed the way Aragorn healed Faramir, Merry and Éowyn, but as an affliction of the soul that had its roots in who he was or believed himself to be. For that to be healed, he would have to be both conscious and consenting. (Éowyn is a good parallel - Aragorn could heal her arm, but not the despair that had driven her to seek death on the Pelennor in the first place; the latter could only be healed by Faramir's love and a change of mind in Éowyn herself.)
What I like about your script is that it gives Denethor a chance to achieve something important and die an honourable death (what does he die from, though? Exhaustion from the mental and spiritual exertion of his duel with Sauron, probably); also that you reach the same final outcome by a different road - he still dies, and the palantír still shows his burned hands. Nice!

Why Denethor had to be made harsher - I think it's probably got to do with Tolkien deliberately setting up Denethor and Théoden as contrasting ruler figures. I can't quite remember where I've seen this observation elaborated (maybe Shippey maybe somewhere else), but it's given in nuce in Gandalf's words to Pippin immediately before they meet the Steward:

Théoden is a kindly old man. Denethor is of another sort, proud and subtle, a man of far greater lineage and power, though he is not called a king.

Maybe the Prof felt making Denethor too understanding towards Faramir, and thus having the reader sympathize with him more, would weaken the contrast?
Another aspect of the Théoden/Denethor-contrast: the 'carreers' of both characters, from the scenes where we first meet them to their deaths, in a way mirror each other. Théoden begins with his spirit paralyzed by Wormtongue's manipulation, but with Gandalf's help he regains his energy, overcomes his enemies and dies as a victorious hero; whereas Denethor begins in full possession of his willpower and mental faculties, but is gradually eroded by both Sauron's manipulations via the palantír and the outcome of his own decisions until he succumbs and takes his own life in despair. Having him survive and be healed would, of course, utterly spoil this elegant symmetry.

[Sarumian]

Pitchwife,

the main problem with my scenario is that I am not Tolkien Thank you for interesting response; of course I was just kidding.

I really like this idea of symmetry in two powerful men lifespan. I would just add that Theoden (when he was sane) was completely attached to his people, whereas Denethor is clearly remote. I can suppose that for Tolkien this could have been a borderline between a proper monarchy and tyranny.

However, I'd like to draw your attention to two forces that could, in my opinion have influenced Denethor's view on things in a positive way had he survived the siege. Firstly, it is his fatherly feelings. Secondly it's his perpetual bid for honour. I wouldn't say he was an ordinary power freak; what was his fetish was rather matter of STATUS. But he wouldn't have admitted this, so he devoted himself to guarding his HONOUR instead. The fact that during the siege he was not helpful at all would have been a great shame and if a bit of common sense had remined in Denethor he would have realised that resigning is the only way to save some honour in this situation. This thought would either have driven him completely mad or would have made him to start coping with reality. At the same time the return of the king could have appear a much better formal reason to resign than just to leave power to the son, for it shifts the attention from previous failures to current needs. I can imagine Denethor half-heartedly agreeing to hand the power over "in order to avoid another kin strifee", following the common wish for Aragorn to rule Gondor. Then he could either have made another attempt to die for Gondor in some more sensible way or have enjoyed the status of a father of a gondorian Prince.

PS. I can actually find some correspondence with Theoden's destiny even in my "scenario", where Denethor also dies fulfilling his errand, but unlike Theoden who dies with his people, Denehor does it in solitude, making his fight his own way.

[Rumil]

Nice thread, Just a quick point to throw into the mix,

Gandalf plainly foresaw what Denethor's fate 'should have been' had he not committed suicide-

Whereas your part is to go out to the battle of your City, where maybe death awaits you. This you know in your heart.

I think though that this makes too 'neat' a coincidence, two old leaders; Theoden and Denethor, both depressed by works of the enemy, both healed by Gandalf, both die heroically at the Pelennor.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

I agree that the notion of Elrond not summoning Denethor or one of his representatives to Rivendell for the Council of Elrond doesn't make sense.

By the same token, surely the White Council would have been more effective if it had included not only the Eldar and Saruman and Gandalf but also representatives of all the other potential enemies of Sauron, like Gondor, Rohan, Thranduil, Dwarves, Beornings and Men of the Vale of Anduin ?

[Erendis]

As Formendacil mentionned before,there was no real summon for the Council of Elrond.It could be better called a string of coincidences that drove the participants there-by the way,Formendacil,nice comment about Eru's interference,which if seen bearing in mind that Eru and Mangwe have not forgotten Midddle-Earth,it will end to another 4 at least pages of comments-.

As for the effeciency of the White Council,the first question is whether the rest had any knoeldge of Necromanter existence.And even if they had,with all the respect to the other tribes of Middle-Earth and without underestimating their courage,what could they possibly do for help?Of cource the answer here would be "They didn't know about the Ring too.As for the help,the same was thought for Hobbits and see what they have accomplised in the end".However,in the case of the Necromanter there was no almost impossible solution,like casting the Ring into Udun.In fact,they weren't certain of his identity yet.So,supposing that there were Humans and Dwarves etc in the Council,they wouldn't have been asked to go in Dol Guldur having no clue of what they were to face,like Gandalf did,but might have given just an oppinion,which wouldn't have changed the final decision.And when the Council got him out of there,it used its strength to do it,which means magic and possibly the Three.Were there such forces available elsewhere?