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#1 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Yes, in that case of course yes. Indeed - well, I think the closest we can get to deciphering it from the "inside" is thinking that it's a "principle" which works there, for some reason, just as much as the laws of gravitation or whatnot. "Law of curses". (
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#2 | |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
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Or how about this for an in-book perspective: not all curses work, but spectacular ones that do come true make it into history-books such as the Red Book. As far as we know there might have been thousands of treacherous Petty-Dwarwes casting all kinds of nasty curses but with little or no effect. But you don't get a story with curses that don't come off. Even from an in-book perspective.
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#3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Somewhat tangential, but I think the fact that Tolkien never exactly specified what constituted a working curse and what didn't really helps with the essential ambiguity in his greatest Curse Epic--the Narn i Chin Hurin. Melkor's one of the characters you can make the strongest argument for "his curse works," especially if you ascribe to the "Morgoth's Ring" theory stating that Morgoth put his power into the world itself and thus had control over what it did to people.
But you never find out how much of what happens to Turin is because he is cursed, or because he's a jerk. And I think maybe to have Tolkien delineate what exactly makes a curse work might take away some of the mystery of that. Not that we can't dig into it, though!
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#4 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Well, I think, as it has been said in the very beginning, Morgoth's curse is a bit specific (and you could say that about any course that would come from a Vala, Maia or a being of similar power). Because essentially, it differs from let's say Mim's curse in the sense that Morgoth actually has the power to make his curse come true.
At the same time, we could ask however about Saruman's curse of the Shire. Remember? Quote:
For that matter, of course this "curse" is an unusual one as well. First, it very likely might have been just a threat from powerless Saruman to prevent himself from being killed by the Hobbits. Secondly however, if it come down to that, I somehow believe that he would have been able to bring harm upon the Shire. That however leads us to realise - if we go with the scheme of how curses might work as I have outlined in my posts above - that he has no "right" to curse the Shire only out of spite (by the "curse law"), the only wrong the Shire would have done to him would be killing him (if it happened), but then again, Saruman has already done quite a lot of harm to the Shire before, so does he have the "right" to do more if the Shire takes a revenge on him? I would find it more likely that if some Hobbit wished "if he makes us his thralls, may his own thrall turn upon him!", he would have all "right" for his curse to come true. But here again we come to that Saruman was a Maia - so I think his curse, if it were to come into effect, would have its base not in the general "curse law", but in the same spirit as Morgoth's - in his own personal power. And this power he can use as he sees fit, also to bring harm upon the land. It is probable that his death would somehow "amplify" the power of the curse (because if Saruman had enough power to do such a thing while he was alive, there's no reason why he couldn't have been walking around Rohan cursing fields or something like that). I think that's also a thing present in the folklore and old tales which Tolkien possibly might have used, had he stumbled upon such a situation during his writing (and this curse of Saruman itself proves, in my opinion, that he actually would, because he used it here - only it didn't meet its end), like "and with his last words, the Dark Lord said: 'Now thou hast killed me, but here be my revenge: All thy kingdom shall fall into dust in a thousand years!'" And so it would eventually happen...
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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I tend to think that Saruman's curse didn't work because he no longer had the power to back it up. As Gandalf had said earlier, he was a serpent who still had one tooth, the power of his voice. Other power he might have had in his embodied form as an Istar was no longer accessible to him with his expulsion from the order. Cursing the Shire was, I think, done for the purely petty purpose of frightening the Hobbits who had already seen the horrors done to the Shire at Saruman's behest. If it came to pass, it might have done so because the fear Saruman awakened in the Hobbits could make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. If they had believed he had the power to make the curse real, they might neglect the Shire, thinking that anything they tried was doomed to failure because of the "curse." Fortunately, the Hobbits were sensible enough to not let that happen.
As to the general efficacy of curses, I would think that some of the same factors that make oaths binding would also come into play. We know that part of what made the oath of Feanor so powerful and terrible was the fact that he called upon Eru and the Valar as witnesses to it. They are very real powers in Arda (heck, if TH is to be believed, some Vala has the job of enforcing the rules of riddle games). An oath is not the same as a curse, of course, so I doubt that Eru or the Valar would be inclined to make every curse called in their name come to pass. Some that are particularly justified, however, they might. When Melkor and Sauron retained enough power of their own, they were probably capable of making sure the curses they called down upon others actually happened. "Durin's beard," however, would not have the power to make a curse effective. "Mahal's beard," on the other hand, would invoke Aule, and if he thought the curse a valid one, he might act on it.
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. John Stewart Mill |
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#6 | ||||||||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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Very nice responses.
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![]() If 'the curse of a Dwarf never dies' had become a saying in Middle-earth, maybe that speaks for Aulė having some unusual interest in his children, and interceding on their behalf on a regular basis. Quote:
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Frodo divined which was which: Quote:
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#7 | |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
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Unlike Mīm's curse on Andróg, of course, both these curses were attached to items either wrought or formerly owned by the respective Dwarf. But now I think of it - is this just phantom memory again, or does some variant to the Silmarillion text in HoME (or possibly CoH?) mention that Mīm cursed the Nauglamķr when Hśrin slew him in Nargothrond, and that curse contributed to the ruin of Doriath? If so, this would be a nice parallel to the story of Andvari - with the exception that Mīm wasn't the rightful owner of the necklace, so "karmic balance" wouldn't play a part in the fulfilling of the curse. About Morgoth's curse - if we accept that he had the power to make his curse come true, don't we thereby agree that he was indeed, as he claimed in the Narn, "Master of the fates of Arda", and that Hśrin's defiant words "You cannot see them, or govern them from afar: not while you keep this shape, and desire still to be a King visible upon earth" were mistaken? As I see it, all Morgoth could do was, so to speak, set the frame conditions for his curse to be fulfilled - but Tśrin had lots of chances to escape it at every turn of the way, if he had made some better choices. (Btw, the fact that he didn't still doesn't make him a jerk for me! ![]()
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#8 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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But a great deal of the ruin wrought on Tśrin was accomplished by Glaurung, who was acting on Morgoth's instructions. If not for Glaurung, could the curse have been realised?
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#9 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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With Turin, I tend to think that it was a little bit of Morgoth's curse genuinely in action, nudging some circumstances so that what was really the worst choice seemed like the best. Morgoth didn't need to keep this up forever; after a while, making bad choices can become a habit (and lord knows, my own family's history is adequate proof of that! ![]()
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. John Stewart Mill |
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