'Elven Music in Our Times', Mira Sommer

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

(Celtic I don't think need be limited to elven music, but could also apply to the The Shire, especially with folk dances.)

Well that's what I think as well. The celtic music (Irish, English), especially the folk-music, would be the hobbit stuff. But then the hobbits are no relatives to elves, so the elvish music shouldn't be the "upgareded" or "artsyfied" version of it (Enya-style, or the synthetizers and the pan-flute!) but to be "something completely different".

I think I can catch a haunting sense of reverie in the music, but I'd be interested in hearing what it is in Brahem's music that makes you think of elven music.

To me it's the kind of meditativeness, the eerie feeling you can't quite fathom what it is... like is it sad or happy (without the major-minor tonality the middle-Eastern music tends to have that odd effect on an European), it sounds to me something both incorporeal and fleshy at the same time; like passion and otherworldliness in the same package. Something I could imagine the elves feeling towards this reality... Am I making any sense?

[Faramir Jones]

You gave an interesting answer to Bêthberry's query here, Nogrod:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

To me it's the kind of meditativeness, the eerie feeling you can't quite fathom what it is... like is it sad or happy (without the major-minor tonality the middle-Eastern music tends to have that odd effect on an European), it sounds to me something both incorporeal and fleshy at the same time; like passion and otherworldliness in the same package. Something I could imagine the elves feeling towards this reality... Am I making any sense?

As I said before, each of us have our own definitions of what things, including music, we regard as 'elvish'. The music you linked to was nice; and I can see the point you're making; but I don't think anyone should presume that Tolkien would have liked it.

[Thinlómien]

I don't have anything to add, but in case you are interested, here is a recent and related thread:

Elves and Music

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

but I don't think anyone should presume that Tolkien would have liked it.

Well, that's the age old question...

But if the title is "Elven music in our times" I think we can look at it not only as a subject about which contemporary artists would the prof. have approved of, but also as how we could think of the elven music today with our wider perspectives.

If Mira Sommer is of the mind that Nightwish is okay then she is... but I'd bet the prof. would have chosen Anouar Brahem over Nightwish in an instant.

So where is the difference?

[Bêthberry]

I find this discussion fascinating!

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Well that's what I think as well. The celtic music (Irish, English), especially the folk-music, would be the hobbit stuff. But then the hobbits are no relatives to elves, so the elvish music shouldn't be the "upgareded" or "artsyfied" version of it (Enya-style, or the synthetizers and the pan-flute!) but to be "something completely different".

Nice to see you agree! Much as I enjoy many kinds of celtic music and English folk music, I think that Tolkien has clearly suggested Hobbits and Elves have different kinds of music. Or perhaps a better way to explain it is that their music functions differently in their cultures.

Hobbit music is best respresented by the festivities surrounding Bilbo's birthday party, with its "songs, dances, music, games, and, of course, food and drink" ("A Long Expected Party"). It's all a bit racuous, with "Noises of trumpets and horns, pipes and flutes, and other musical instruments. . . . Hundreds of musical crackers had been pulled." And in competition with Bilbo's speech there is:

Originally Posted by A Long Expected Party

some of the young Tooks and Brandybucks, supposing Uncle Bilbo to have finished (since he had plainly said all that was necessary), now got up an impromptu orchestra, and began a merry dance-tune. Master Everard Took and Miss Melilot Brandybuck got on a table and with bells in their hands began to dance the Springle-ring: a pretty dance, but rather vigorous.

Now "vigorous" cannot be said of elven music. In fact, I can't recall elves dancing at all. At least not physically.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

To me it's the kind of meditativeness, the eerie feeling you can't quite fathom what it is... like is it sad or happy (without the major-minor tonality the middle-Eastern music tends to have that odd effect on an European), it sounds to me something both incorporeal and fleshy at the same time; like passion and otherworldliness in the same package. Something I could imagine the elves feeling towards this reality... Am I making any sense?

I think the best way to 'make sense' of your description here is to recall the music in the Hall of Fire in Rivendell. The Hall of Fire is not the feasting or partying room, but a room for meditative purposes.

Originally Posted by Gandalf in Many Meetings

'This is the Hall of Fire,' said the wizard. 'Here you will hear many songs and tales--if you can keep awake. But except on high days it usually stands empty and quiet, and people come here who wish for peace, and thought. There is always a fire here, all the year round, but there is little other light.'

More extensive description belongs to Frodo's experience of the elven music. It's interesting that we don't read how elves respond to their music, but are introduced to it through Frodo's initiation.

Originally Posted by narrative, Many Meetings

At first the beauty of the melodies and of the interwoven words in elven-tongues, even though he understood them little, held him in a spell, as soon as he began to attend to them. Almost it seemed that the words took shape, and visions of far lands and bright things that he had never yet imagined opened out before him; and the firelit hall became like a golden mist above season of foam that sighed upon the margins of the world. Then the enchantment became more and more dreamlike, until he felt that an endless river of swelling gold and silver was flowing over him, too multitudinous for its pattern to be comprehended; it became part of the throbbing air about him, and it drenched and drowned him. Swiftly he sank under its shining weight into a deep realm of sleep.
There he wandered long in a dream of music that turned into running water, and then suddenly into a voice . . . .

That voice, when it concludes, is described as "chanting" rather than singing or reciting.

So I would think that Tolkien had in mind contemplative forms of music for elves. We might all have differing ideas of what contemplative music is, but it would be interesting to consider both western and eastern traditions. (After all, Sanskrit would not be an unknown language to philologists.)

[Gwathagor]

There's different kinds of Celtic music, too. The fast-paced Irish/Scottish folk music that we'd associate with Hobbits is really pretty recent stuff - but the older Celtic music, like sean nos and violin piobaireachd, has a different tone entirely, and could be seen as Elvish. They're much less...light, I guess? More formal, more deliberate, with a greater sense of age and significance. To me, piobaireachd and sean nos feel more ancient and elemental than other Celtic music, which is how I would imagine Elvish music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQy-WjdQPv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8paj2hQHIo

[Bêthberry]

Thanks for posting those links, Gwathagor. They are beautiful and I enjoyed them very much.

Yet they don't work for me. I've done too much Scottish dancing and listened to too much music from Cape Breton (Nova Scotia) for me to be able to identify that with the elves. It is still primarily, to me, Celtic, the music of the race of men. I need something altogether more otherworldly, without the historical cultural signifiers, which is why I like Norgrod's suggestion of something beyond our usual musical repetoire.

There's a tradition of healing music in Japan, using the Zen bamboo flute (the Shakuhachi), which also to me sounds like something the elves would get into. But I don't imagine many Downers would second me on that.

[Gwathagor]

Since Elves are ultimately earth-bound creatures, perhaps otherworldly music doesn't fit them? Unless you just mean otherworldly in contrast to historical. (In which case I agree with you.)

[Bêthberry]

Sorry for the delay replying, Gwathagor; I was away most of yesterday.

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Since Elves are ultimately earth-bound creatures, perhaps otherworldly music doesn't fit them? Unless you just mean otherworldly in contrast to historical. (In which case I agree with you.)

Right you are that elves are bound to the earth, yet they may leave Middle-earth for Aman, which after the sundering is no longer reachable by men. So it can be argued that they can attain something that is otherworldly.

But perhaps more to my point are the characteristics of elves which make them more in tune with ethereal world, even while in Middle-earth. As Bilbo says to Frodo of Rivendell, "Time doesn't seem to pass here; it just is" ("Many Meetings").
And their ability to inform both a material body and a spiritual essence. Frodo, striken as he is after Weathertop, sees that spiritual essence of Glorfindel in "Flight to the Ford".

Suddenly into view came a white horse, gleaming in the shadows, running swiftly. In the dusk its headstall flicered and flashed, as if it were studded with gems like living stars. The rider's cloak streamed behind him, and his hood was thrown back; his golden hair flowed shimmering in the wind of his speed. To Frodo it appeared that a white light was shining through the form and raiment of the rider, as if through a thin veil.

And before Frodo passes into unconsciousness after crossing the river, he has this strange vision, of the flood and of a white figure, which could also be Glorfindel.

Dimly Frodo saw the river below him rise, and down along its course there came a plumed cavalry of waves. White flames seemed to Frodo to flicker on their crests and he half fancied that he saw amid the water white riders upon white horses with frothing manes. . . .

With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran samll shadowy forms waving flames, that flared red in the grey mist that was falling over the world.

I think that probably fits your contrast to historical.

[Faramir Jones]

It might be interesting for people to see the two main definitions given by The Oxford English Dictionary of 'otherworldly'.

First is 'Devoted to spiritual matters or life; ascetic, spiritual; (more generally) unworldly. Also as n. [noun] (with the): ascetic, spiritual, or unworldly people as a class (with pl. concord)'.

Second is 'Of or relating to a world other than the actual or material; esp. of or relating to a mystical or fantasy world'.

Do people think that we include the Elves in Tolkien's world under both definitions? Every race there (including Man) is part of a fantasy world, created out of an author's imagination; so all come under the second definition. But is it that Elves are supposed to live for so very long (though they are not immortal), and have gone where Man cannot follow, hanging around with the Valar, that make us also think of them, above all other races, as coming under the first definition?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

In fact, I can't recall elves dancing at all. At least not physically.

Oh, but of course they did! Remember Luthien in the forest of Neldoreth?

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

There's a tradition of healing music in Japan, using the Zen bamboo flute (the Shakuhachi), which also to me sounds like something the elves would get into. But I don't imagine many Downers would second me on that.

I definitely would! I don't find it at all hard to imagine that Daeron or Tinfang Warble playing the flute could have sounded like this; or, if you'd like something a bit less cuddly and New-Agey, maybe that.
I also hear something Elvish in Chinese/Japanese compositions for the pipa, like e.g
Dance music for a festive evening in Rivendell
A tone poem commemorating the heroic struggles of the Noldor in the First Age
(titles invented by me)
What I find interesting about this kind of music is that one the one hand, it's very disciplined and rigorously elegant, while on the other hand (at least to European ears) it does have a weird, 'otherworldly' (...not going to discuss that in mid-sentence...) charm and, in some pieces (esp. the last one I linked) a wild, fairish abandon that really rocks. Very Elvish on both sides of the scale, as far as I'm concerned.

Gwath, I think I totally see where you're coming from. Keeping in tune with the idea of Middle-earth as calque on medieval/Dark Age Europe, it certainly makes sense to look for parallels to Elven music within the European musical tradition, whether Celtic or Gregorian.
But it just occurred to me that the culture of Middle-earth as described in the book is probably just as much a translation from the (imaginary) original as the English of the narrative representing the Westron of the 'real' Red Book. As The Prof himself said in LotR, Appendix F:

This linguistic procedure [i.e. representing the Rohirric language by Anglo-Saxon, Pw.] does not imply that the Rohirrim closely resembled the ancient English otherwise, in culture or art, in weapons or modes of warfare, except in a general way due to their circumstances [...]

We find non-European cultural influences in various parts of the Legendarium. Both Adûnaic and Khuzdûl were modelled on the Semitic language family. The Tengwar have a lot in common with Asian scripts like Devanagari or its descendants (in structural principle, if not in actual letter shapes). So why couldn't the 'original' music of the Elves have sounded like something from Tunisia or China?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Oh, but of course they did! Remember Luthien in the forest of Neldoreth?

Well, I was thinking just in terms of LotR, but how could I forget the most famous teenage elf? Interesting, though, that Luthien's dancing is a private, solitary dance, almost a communion with the forest and natural world, and not a social activity or performance, even if secretly observed.

I definitely would! I don't find it at all hard to imagine that Daeron or Tinfang Warble playing the flute could have sounded like this; or, if you'd like something a bit less cuddly and New-Agey, maybe that.
I also hear something Elvish in Chinese/Japanese compositions for the pipa, like e.g
Dance music for a festive evening in Rivendell
A tone poem commemorating the heroic struggles of the Noldor in the First Age
(titles invented by me)

Thanks for those links. Yes, that's what I was thinking of with the shakuhachi. I've sat through an hour concert of it and it was one of the most serene and uplifting musical experiences I've ever had, very different from western concerts, either of symphony or rock/pop or church.

[Faramir Jones]

Lúthien also danced before Morgoth's throne, that being a very public occasion.

And do people not remember the elves dancing and singing in The Hobbit?

As for Bêthberry calling Lúthien a 'teenage' elf, words fail me.