Couldn't Niniel and Turin work this out?

[Eorl of Rohan]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

No one committed infanticide in the story.

Niniel was pregnant when she committed suicide; that's technically an infanticide.

[Aiwendil]

Technically, I don't think it is. But that's a discussion we probably don't want to get into here.

[obloquy]

Suicide is sinful because all deliberately self-destructive practices are sinful. A righteous man recognizes his life and health as gifts from God, which he would never willfully spurn.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eorl of Rohan

Niniel was pregnant when she committed suicide; that's technically an infanticide.

Words sometimes have specific meanings. Like patricide means 'killing Patrick.'

Originally Posted by obloquy

Suicide is sinful because all deliberately self-destructive practices are sinful. A righteous man recognizes his life and health as gifts from God, which he would never willfully spurn.

I was thinking about this. Those who stood beside Húrin, providing a rear guard so that Turgon could escape, knew that they were about to die. Standing, their task was to slow the advance of Morgoth's hordes. Sense would dictate that they flee, but they didn't. Not only had they made oaths to their King, but some may have known that they were sacrificing themselves so that there would still be a tomorrow, and one day, Morgoth's realm would fall.

Niniel, knowing now that her child was Turin's, may have believed that her child, being in the line of Hurin (not half, but from both sides), would allow Morgoth to continue his tortuous game with the next generation of this sorrowful family. In her despair, but also, like her family, in defiance of Morgoth, she sacrificed herself and the life of her child to thwart the Dark Lord's plans.

Who knows what life this child would have had? Thralldom? A Dark Child under Morgoth, used as a weapon against the Free Elves and Men?

Does this sanction suicide or homicide? Not in the least. This was a special person in special circumstances.

Didn't see anything proscribing suicide in Arda. Tolkien, being a Christian in our world, had other beliefs outside his created world. And it is believed that his God is a god of love and grace, which all surely need, even those like Niniel.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by alatar

Words sometimes have specific meanings. Like patricide means 'killing Patrick.'


I was thinking about this. Those who stood beside Húrin, providing a rear guard so that Turgon could escape, knew that they were about to die. Standing, their task was to slow the advance of Morgoth's hordes. Sense would dictate that they flee, but they didn't. Not only had they made oaths to their King, but some may have known that they were sacrificing themselves so that there would still be a tomorrow, and one day, Morgoth's realm would fall.

Niniel, knowing now that her child was Turin's, may have believed that her child, being in the line of Hurin (not half, but from both sides), would allow Morgoth to continue his tortuous game with the next generation of this sorrowful family. In her despair, but also, like her family, in defiance of Morgoth, she sacrificed herself and the life of her child to thwart the Dark Lord's plans.

Who knows what life this child would have had? Thralldom? A Dark Child under Morgoth, used as a weapon against the Free Elves and Men?

Does this sanction suicide or homicide? Not in the least. This was a special person in special circumstances.

Didn't see anything proscribing suicide in Arda. Tolkien, being a Christian in our world, had other beliefs outside his created world. And it is believed that his God is a god of love and grace, which all surely need, even those like Niniel.

Discussion of sin is obviously done in the context of our own world and its religious tenets. Whether Tolkien passed these beliefs along to his creations, I do not know. Was suicide sinful in Middle-earth?

Sacrifice and suicide are patently different beasts, separated by the motives which precipitate their advent. On one hand, a willingness to pay the ultimate price in furtherance of some righteous goal, or in protection of another, ennobles the act. On the other hand, suicide accomplishes only the cessation of emotional pain for the deceased, often leaving far more grievous emotional pain in its wake. It can thus be characterized as selfish and cowardly. Again, from a religious standpoint, the argument might be made that a more righteous man would turn to God for, if not relief from woe, strength to overcome it.

[Erendis]

Just for those who wondered whether marriage between siblings was practiced legally in the Ancient world,it did only im Ancient Edypt,particularly in the Hellinistic and Roman period,of which we have many racords.

In the rest of antiquity,when practised it was considered immoral and sinful(see the case of Caligula).

For more information check:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest#History

[alatar]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Sacrifice and suicide are patently different beasts, separated by the motives which precipitate their advent. On one hand, a willingness to pay the ultimate price in furtherance of some righteous goal, or in protection of another, ennobles the act. On the other hand, suicide accomplishes only the cessation of emotional pain for the deceased, often leaving far more grievous emotional pain in its wake. It can thus be characterized as selfish and cowardly. Again, from a religious standpoint, the argument might be made that a more righteous man would turn to God for, if not relief from woe, strength to overcome it.

Well explained. In your opinion, when Faramir, Denethor II's son, went to bar the passage of the river, was this attempted suicide? Or sacrifice? Wasn't his motive to gain his father's respect (finally), or find an end to his despair? When Eowyn, 'spurned' by Aragorn, went into battle to seek death, was this not attempted suicide? Her motive was to end her (what she thought was) a caged in, just above the dirt and reek inglorious life.

Both had suffered losses, were in fantastic situations - well, of course - meaning that these days weren't like most others. Faramir had been under the Shadow as well. Both tried 'death by orc' as the means, and were unsuccessful in their attempts. Do we think poorly of them? Any talk of their 'sin?'

Niniel was in the same situation as the two examples above, and happened to choose a more effective method.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, interesting thought in any case, but I think eventually not a right one.

Wouldn't be the first time...

If Nienor was really thinking that way, then I would call her behavior foolish. Because that is a totally twisted logic. It is the same as when some people make suicide as to avoid the "cruel world". The fact that the child could be used as a "weapon" by Morgoth could be a good reason if Nienor had a proof of that, but she didn't. If she was thinking about it, like you say, rationally, then she jumped to conclusions and gave up a bit too soon.

She was in the state of despair, having lost her husband/brother, and knew how bitter the lives of the Children of Hurin were. How could she think that, were she to go somewhere (where?) and bear her child, that this child would not be subject to the same bitterness, if not more so?

But I don't believe she was thinking that way. I think she was just desperate and acting mainly irrationally, overwhelmed by despair. I don't think she was in the mood to spin any complicated theories. "I am doomed, we are all doomed, we are all cursed, Túrin happy to be dead, wish I were dead too" - quite easy train of thought turned into a deed. Nothing unusual there.

Agreed. I just added the 'Dark Child' idea as it could have been an interesting contrast to the scions of Huor.

As for seeing suicide as sinful in Middle-Earth, though, I would still assume Tolkien holding it as sinful even in Middle-Earth. Well, "sinful", I haven't seen much of a definition of "sin" in Middle-Earth, but certainly something rather wrong and something normal healthy and sane people would not do.

Most of Turin's actions fail those tests.

Okay, you have the "almost-Church terminology" here ("heathen kings"), but obviously a person who wants to commit a suicide is likened here to somebody under the domination of the Dark Power, slaying himself "in pride and despair". So Gandalf says it actually in a rather radical way.

In law, I think that there is a distinction between 'crimes of passion' and those that are premeditated. Niniel did not build herself a pyre and make a big spectacle.

However, one important point I would like to raise here is that the tale never concludes these stories with any grim notes condemning those people. It is not that Narn or the Red Book would tell the people of Middle-Earth "do not commit suicide" and making examples of Denethor and Nienor and Túrin (and Maedhros, although he was an Elf, so maybe somewhat different rules apply), they just portray suicide as a desperate tragic act, implying logically that it should be avoided, but not saying that it is anything deserving any further punishment: the talk of punishment is completely out of the scope of these stories.

Agreed. Count in those lists those mentioned above who sought death yet did not find it at that time.

If Turin will be present at the Dagor Dagorath, complete jerk that he was, won't there be any grace for poor Niniel?

Pity those lost who wander down that dark road...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Just to toss in my two cents, I would venture to say that a key element in suicide, as Tolkien presents it, is the matter of pride and/or despair that Gandalf mentions. Both Nienor and Denethor killed themselves in despair. Éowyn actively sought death (and kept on seeking it) in despair, until her despair was healed. I get a feeling that Faramir felt more frustration than despair, that it seemed that nothing he could do, short of dying, would win his father's approval.

But in Tolkien's world, one would have a hard time always defining the willful ending of one's life as the "sin" of suicide. The Númenoreans, blessed with long lives, were supposed to surrender the gift of life and accept the Gift of death when the time came. Evil often resulted when persons refused to die and lingered beyond their appointed time. In the broad sense of suicide being the willful ending of one's life, then Aragorn committed suicide when he accepted the Gift. But Tolkien doesn't present this in a negative light, rather as something natural and expected. Although Arwen is upset by it, Aragorn isn't; there is no element of despair on his part. But his lying down and dying is as deliberate an act as Nienor jumping off the cliff. Tolkien, I think, had a clear personal sense of a natural order of life and death, and despair and excessive pride goes against that order, perverting it.

[obloquy]

I agree wholly with Ibrin. My explanations were intended for Aiwendil, who had heard that suicide is sinful, but never understood why. They have little bearing on Middle-earth.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

Words sometimes have specific meanings. Like patricide means 'killing Patrick.'


I was thinking about this. Those who stood beside Húrin, providing a rear guard so that Turgon could escape, knew that they were about to die. Standing, their task was to slow the advance of Morgoth's hordes. Sense would dictate that they flee, but they didn't. Not only had they made oaths to their King, but some may have known that they were sacrificing themselves so that there would still be a tomorrow, and one day, Morgoth's realm would fall.

Niniel, knowing now that her child was Turin's, may have believed that her child, being in the line of Hurin (not half, but from both sides), would allow Morgoth to continue his tortuous game with the next generation of this sorrowful family. In her despair, but also, like her family, in defiance of Morgoth, she sacrificed herself and the life of her child to thwart the Dark Lord's plans.

Who knows what life this child would have had? Thralldom? A Dark Child under Morgoth, used as a weapon against the Free Elves and Men?

Does this sanction suicide or homicide? Not in the least. This was a special person in special circumstances.

Didn't see anything proscribing suicide in Arda. Tolkien, being a Christian in our world, had other beliefs outside his created world. And it is believed that his God is a god of love and grace, which all surely need, even those like Niniel.

Well, interesting thought in any case, but I think eventually not a right one. If Nienor was really thinking that way, then I would call her behavior foolish. Because that is a totally twisted logic. It is the same as when some people make suicide as to avoid the "cruel world". The fact that the child could be used as a "weapon" by Morgoth could be a good reason if Nienor had a proof of that, but she didn't. If she was thinking about it, like you say, rationally, then she jumped to conclusions and gave up a bit too soon.

But I don't believe she was thinking that way. I think she was just desperate and acting mainly irrationally, overwhelmed by despair. I don't think she was in the mood to spin any complicated theories. "I am doomed, we are all doomed, we are all cursed, Túrin happy to be dead, wish I were dead too" - quite easy train of thought turned into a deed. Nothing unusual there.

As for seeing suicide as sinful in Middle-Earth, though, I would still assume Tolkien holding it as sinful even in Middle-Earth. Well, "sinful", I haven't seen much of a definition of "sin" in Middle-Earth, but certainly something rather wrong and something normal healthy and sane people would not do. Look at what Gandalf tells to Denethor. "The houses of the dead are no place for the living" is his greeting to him - meaning obviously both him and Faramir, you can easily see the general opinion behind it.

Quite plainly it is said here:

"Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death," answered Gandalf. "And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death."

Okay, you have the "almost-Church terminology" here ("heathen kings"), but obviously a person who wants to commit a suicide is likened here to somebody under the domination of the Dark Power, slaying himself "in pride and despair". So Gandalf says it actually in a rather radical way.

That said, this is not exactly the same as the case of Nienor. It is given by the basic logic of the tale those people are present in. Nienor's is ultimately dark and ends badly. Denethor could have seen the day of victory and, had he overcame his pride, even see quite happy days of bringing his Stewardship to fulfilment. However, one important point I would like to raise here is that the tale never concludes these stories with any grim notes condemning those people. It is not that Narn or the Red Book would tell the people of Middle-Earth "do not commit suicide" and making examples of Denethor and Nienor and Túrin (and Maedhros, although he was an Elf, so maybe somewhat different rules apply), they just portray suicide as a desperate tragic act, implying logically that it should be avoided, but not saying that it is anything deserving any further punishment: the talk of punishment is completely out of the scope of these stories. Obviously, as also any existence after death is completely out of scope and is utterly different from the life before it (shown in the fact that it is portrayed as uncharted and alien, but at the same time with affirmation of personal continuity and with the view towards the last Great Music. I must note here that I like it, because Tolkien's image of post-mortal life is, in a way, here lot more sober and "more Christian" than many latter, esp. medieval Christian depictions, in avoiding the overspammed images of post-mortal life. Maybe the people in Middle-Earth had in a way still just too clear contact with the divine - having basically eyewitnesses among themselves - to avoid the massive creations of images of post-mortal life, in contrary to our world. Although we are talking about the West here again, who knows if some Easterlings or Southrons didn't have their own invented mythologies).