Enchanted Stream

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I believe that if the Stream was enchanted by anybody in particular, it had to be the Elves, or some local not-directly-evil power, like some local Bombadil or even better some local River's Daughter (how fitting indeed! After all, we don't know about the hidden corners of Middle-Earth, do we, and somebody like that would fit here really well!!! And you may try to disagree!!!).

The enchantment could also have been there for quite a long time, and who's to say Bombadil or Goldberry themselves didn't live in that part of Mirkwood at one point? Gandalf said Bombadil had 'withdrawn' into the Old Forest, indicating he once could have lived elsewhere.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The enchantment could also have been there for quite a long time, and who's to say Bombadil or Goldberry themselves didn't live in that part of Mirkwood at one point? Gandalf said Bombadil had 'withdrawn' into the Old Forest, indicating he once could have lived elsewhere.

Of course it's possible, but really, why are we always limiting ourselves so much? I mean, of course we are not supposed to make it a Dungeons&Dragons setting and fill the map with spiders' lairs in every forest and dragons in every cave from Lindon to Rhun (let us leave that for the creators of LotR computer RPG games who actually need to do that in order to cope with the expectations of their genre), but why to think of Bombadil - or Goldberry, which seems a bit more illogical by itself, as she seems to be one of the many River's Daughters, and she seems to be this River's Daughter - and especially if the enchantment has been there for a long time, who knows how many Melians have traveled Middle-Earth in its early days, and how many other spirits unknown wandered there in these immesureable halls of Arda! That's nothing against you, Inziladun, but I feel like I should say this - in opposition to all the raving fanfiction-madness, there is the opposite extreme of making Middle-Earth a mechanised world which is cathegorised and there is basically nothing unknown for us inside it. While the opposite should be true! Why not to give our imagination the space, here, where it is appropriate and not forced at all (in contrary to, in my opinion, forcing for example Bombadil or another known creature there and filling it with "the known" just for the sake of filling it)? "And the world being after all full of strange creatures beyond count" (LotR Prologue).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I feel like I should say this - in opposition to all the raving fanfiction-madness, there is the opposite extreme of making Middle-Earth a mechanised world which is cathegorised and there is basically nothing unknown for us inside it. While the opposite should be true! Why not to give our imagination the space, here, where it is appropriate and not forced at all (in contrary to, in my opinion, forcing for example Bombadil or another known creature there and filling it with "the known" just for the sake of filling it)? "And the world being after all full of strange creatures beyond count" (LotR Prologue).

Well, certainly in this case (and in many cases while discussing these works) nearly anything is possible. However, the rather distinct nature of my makeup forces me to focus on the likeliest explanations first, even though they may not be correct . In any case, I think Gwathagor probably has the right of it here.
But if you're going to speculate on other possibilities, what is there to work with but the known quantities in the books? Imagination can't be allowed too free of a rein. Otherwise, we might say Hobbit-legend was correct about the Tooks, that one had indeed 'taken a fairy wife', and that one of them had enchanted the stream back when Hobbits lived near the Anduin.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, certainly in this case (and in many cases while discussing these works) nearly anything is possible. However, the rather distinct nature of my makeup forces me to focus on the likeliest explanations first, even though they may not be correct . In any case, I think Gwathagor probably has the right of it here.
But if you're going to speculate on other possibilities, what is there to work with but the known quantities in the books? Imagination can't be allowed too free of a rein. Otherwise, we might say Hobbit-legend was correct about the Tooks, that one had indeed 'taken a fairy wife', and that one of them had enchanted the stream back when Hobbits lived near the Anduin.

Well! Have you not been reading what I just said? I think I answered to what you say just here. I think I was pretty clear about "too free imagination" and as for "likeliest", if you meant Gwathagor, fine enough, but perhaps a bit too "limited view" in this case - there is nothing preventing us from seeing an agent behind all this. If you meant your Bombadil hypothesis, then once again, see above - that's not likeliest in any case, that, if anything, is far more far-fetched than my Forest River-Daughter theory (forcing the poor fellow in his big boots yellow enchant random streams illogical seems, hmm?).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well! Have you not been reading what I just said? I think I answered to what you say just here. I think I was pretty clear about "too free imagination" and as for "likeliest", if you meant Gwathagor, fine enough, but perhaps a bit too "limited view" in this case - there is nothing preventing us from seeing an agent behind all this. If you meant your Bombadil hypothesis, then once again, see above - that's not likeliest in any case, that, if anything, is far more far-fetched than my Forest River-Daughter theory (forcing the poor fellow in his big boots yellow enchant random streams illogical seems, hmm?).

Basically, what I meant was that I look for common threads in the books, and that allowing for multiple 'River-daughters', for example, when there doesn't seem to be any evidence of it, seems improper to me. Speculation is free though, and I'm not saying anyone else is bound to 'limit' their thinking (if that's the way you want to consider it) the way I do. Like I said, that's just the way my mind works; I want to make things fit in ME. Maybe they don't, as an intention of the author, but that doesn't stop me trying.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Remember the Enchanted Stream in Mirkwood? Bombur fell into it and slept quite a long time due to the enchantment. My question is was it ever explained anywhere why it was enchanted and who caused it? I can't seem to find and reference about it.

Could it possibly be Thranduil (or his father)? Thranduil was of the Sindar who ruled the Silvan of Mirkwood. If he was Sindarin (with his father, former ruler of Mirkwood), then most likely a close associate of Thingol and Melian. And is it too far-fetched to suppose that Melian taught some enchantments to Thranduil (or his father)? After all, she did hallow Esgalduin, though the Girlde was the primary defense of Doriath. But the enchantment on the river seems too potent to cast even for a Sindarin elf. But what about Eol and his "enchantments" at Nan Elmoth? Or were those magicks already present before he took his abode there? I remember him casting some spell to snare Aredhel, a Calaquendi!
As said above, it's hard to associate Thranduil for the enchantment. Perhaps if he bore one of the Three Elven-rings... it could be possible. After all, Vilya allowed Elrond to enchant Bruinen, barring the Nazgul. The "sleep enchantment" could've been useful for Lorien, though, being nearest to Dol Guldor.

Other suspects would be Tom and Goldberry, as mentioned by other posters. Another aforementioned is Melian herself who probably travelled far and wide in Middle-Earth during the "Sleep of Yavanna."

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Basically, what I meant was that I look for common threads in the books, and that allowing for multiple 'River-daughters', for example, when there doesn't seem to be any evidence of it, seems improper to me. Speculation is free though, and I'm not saying anyone else is bound to 'limit' their thinking (if that's the way you want to consider it) the way I do. Like I said, that's just the way my mind works; I want to make things fit in ME. Maybe they don't, as an intention of the author, but that doesn't stop me trying.

But Tolkien himself says that there were more things that he has written about! So that fits.

And for multiple River-daughters, well, I always thought about it that way that she was just one of many daughters of her own mother, and in any case, if we take her mother as a real character, as specifically said especially in the Adventures of Tom Bombadil, that would imply that there is just a "race", we could say, of these river-sprites, who procreate and therefore one could assume there being more of them. Probably less than in ancient times, but still... something like Ents, for instance, or a good counterpart to the Spiders, possibly traceable to some Maia of Ulmo or something like that as their originator. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. And I don't know how about your local mythology, but at least in the fairy-tales and myths of my country some sort of sprites in woman form who live in the water is perfectly normal, so I am sort of associating Goldberry with them (she has basically the same traits) - I am assuming that some similar concept exists more widely, and therefore, Tolkien would likely use this as a basis for Goldberry's character. And such a kind of beings can easily exist throughout the Middle-Earth, not in every stream (especially if it's associated with Ulmo, the explanation is easy: Ulmo himself said that already in the First Age, his powers were withdrawing from the waters of the world), but somewhere - just like the Ents (with possibly even a bit more "isolated" social structure).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But Tolkien himself says that there were more things that he has written about! So that fits.

Yes, he did say that, but we don't know what he had in mind for those creatures that were in his head, but he didn't tell us about.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And for multiple River-daughters, well, I always thought about it that way that she was just one of many daughters of her own mother, and in any case, if we take her mother as a real character, as specifically said especially in the Adventures of Tom Bombadil, that would imply that there is just a "race", we could say, of these river-sprites, who procreate and therefore one could assume there being more of them.

I've certainly heard of nymphs and sprites like that in other stories. My interpretion of 'River-daughter' has been that Goldberry was 'the daughter of the River', the river being the Withywindle specifically, and that she was attached to that place in Middle-earth. Tom said he 'found' her at that particular river, so it seems clear she was connected to it somehow. That could indeed fit the criteria for her being a sprite or something similar. Or maybe she was a daughter of another Maia. Yes, I know. The tendancy to go back to the Maia well for explanations can be tiring.

I've always seen Goldberry and Tom as both being unique in Middle-earth, a matched pair, and without further evidence in the books, there being a race of similar beings is difficult for me to accept. As much as we do get to hear of legends and myths held by the denizens of ME, I just have to think there would be a mention of other Golberries somewhere if they were around. I have the Adventures lying around here somewhere, but it's been missing for quite a while, and I don't remember the reference you cite.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But if you're going to speculate on other possibilities, what is there to work with but the known quantities in the books? Imagination can't be allowed too free of a rein. Otherwise, we might say Hobbit-legend was correct about the Tooks, that one had indeed 'taken a fairy wife', and that one of them had enchanted the stream back when Hobbits lived near the Anduin.

Of course she did.