How did Gollum escape from Moria ?

[Morsul the Dark]

Would Gollum have been trapped? I mean there are no waters (That I know of) in Moria that house fish. So he probably would have eaten Goblins as he did time to time in his old abode. He would have had to learn secret hidden ways. I understand the East Gate was protected by the bridge but at the same time it creates a tough point of advance for an outgoing army as well. They probably had special Outswinging doors hidden along the exit way. Which he found and frequented in his hunt.

[Lastande Took]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Would Gollum have been trapped? I mean there are no waters (That I know of) in Moria that house fish. So he probably would have eaten Goblins as he did time to time in his old abode. He would have had to learn secret hidden ways. I understand the East Gate was protected by the bridge but at the same time it creates a tough point of advance for an outgoing army as well. They probably had special Outswinging doors hidden along the exit way. Which he found and frequented in his hunt.

Good idea, but would the secret exiting doors password-protected as well?

I've just been wondering about this myself. Good thread.

[Morthoron]

It is so simple, really. Gollum had wings.

Hmmm...or was it that the Balrog had wings?

Never mind. I'll get back to you on this.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Would Gollum have been trapped? I mean there are no waters (That I know of) in Moria that house fish. So he probably would have eaten Goblins as he did time to time in his old abode. He would have had to learn secret hidden ways. I understand the East Gate was protected by the bridge but at the same time it creates a tough point of advance for an outgoing army as well. They probably had special Outswinging doors hidden along the exit way. Which he found and frequented in his hunt.

There had to be food. The Orcs ate something, so Gollum probably just stole some of that. He may have also snacked on the occasional unwary Orc. Actually he did steal food from the Orcs - Tolkien says so. I will provide the quote later in this post.

Gollum may have been more familiar with Moria than Aragorn or Gandalf since he'd actually spent more time in there. He was also more accustomed to padding around in dark places than they were. I daresay he preferred places like that. The only problem about being in Moria for Gollum was that it was stopping him from getting the Ring, at least until the Fellowship showed up.

What a welcome surprise that must have been for Gollum!

I imagine that after the destruction of the Chamber of Mazarbul he must have reasoned that heading for the exit was a sound idea. He should have realised that the Fellowship were fairly close to escaping and so hoped that they were aware of this fact too.

Could Gollum have escaped via the East Gate? Well, why not - if that's how he got into Moria! He was originally using Moria to travel from East to West - he tried to get out via the West Gate, but could not push the doors open. Tolkien says that it generally took two people to push the doors open and that Gollum was weak at that time from lack of food. Gollum got into Moria from the East. Either via the East Gate itself or some other less obvious entrance. So if Gollum could get into Moria from the East side, without being detected by the Orcs, which he did - then he could get out that way. There's no real problem or inconsistency here. If he got in that way, then he can get out that way.

The reason why Gollum didn't simply try to escape via this eastern route before is because he was heading for the Shire, which is in the west.

Let's read what the Good Professor says in Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring:

"...He was peculiarly fitted to survive in such straits, though at cost of great misery; but he was in great peril of discovery by the servants of Sauron that lurked in Moria, especially since such bare necessity of food as he must have he could only get by thieving dangerously. No doubt he had intended to use Moria simply as a secret passage westward, his purpose being to find "Shire" himself as quickly as he could; but he became lost, and it was a very long time before he found his way about.

It thus seems probable that he had not long made his way towards the West-gate when the Nine Walkers arrived. He knew nothing, of course, about the action of the doors. To him they would seem huge and immovable; and though they had no lock or bar and opened outwards to a thrust, he did not discover that. In any case he was now far away from any source of food, for the Orcs were mostly in the East-end of Moria, and was become weak and desperate, so that even if he had known all about the doors he still could not have thrust them open. It was thus a piece of singular good fortune for Gollum that the Nine Walkers arrived when they did."

If we think that the East Gate was too well guarded for Gollum to escape, then we can also assume that it was too well guarded for him to have entered that way in the first place - about five months earlier in August 3018. There must have been another way that didn't involve crossing the bridge - otherwise how could he have ever gotten into Moria?

[Findegil]

I doubt that there was another entrance to Moria from the East beside the main doors that the fellowship used. The bridge of Moria would also be useless as a protection if there had been a second way around it.

But the destroyed bridge did not stop the orks from coming after the fellowship once the sun was down. I assume that they bridge the chasam as they had done before with the firefill trenches in the hall: Trolls bringing large stone plates.
And by the same way Gollum can have passed. There was no orc-guard on the brige when the fellowship arrived, so why should there be a guard on the new 'brige' after they escaped?

The doors seemed not to be guarded very well either. As already mentioned Gollum sliped in unseen once before and the Fellowship had no big problem fighting their way out.

We also have to consider that there passed about 6 hours between the escape of the Fellowship and the time when the orc pursuer followed them. That is certainly enough time to find some lazy moment of an Orc-guard to slip by unseen for Gollum.

Respectfully
Findegil

[alatar]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

In any case he was now far away from any source of food, for the Orcs were mostly in the East-end of Moria, and was become weak and desperate, so that even if he had known all about the doors he still could not have thrust them open.

Originally Posted by Findegil

We also have to consider that there passed about 6 hours between the escape of the Fellowship and the time when the orc pursuer followed them. That is certainly enough time to find some lazy moment of an Orc-guard to slip by unseen for Gollum.

Even if we concede that Gollum arrives at the East Gate, he still must pursue a highly motivated Fellowship, who is not only running away from Moria as fast as possible, but also are continually looking back to check for pursuit. Gollum not only maintains a tail on the Fellowship, but arrives at the outskirts of Lorien shortly after the Fellowship does, meaning that Yellow Face nor Gollum's physical condition wasn't much of a deterrent.

[Rumil]

Evening all,

another factor to throw into the mix is Gollum's climbing ability.

When caught by Frodo and Sam he was climbing down a rockface headfirst and described somewhere as 'like a spider' so he was evidently really good at rock climbing. Probably a mix of low body weight plus a very strong grip, and long fingers.

If he had to follow the Fellowship after the bridge was destroyed perhaps he climbed around the edge of the room to cross the chasm?

[Lastande Took]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Evening all,

another factor to throw into the mix is Gollum's climbing ability.

When caught by Frodo and Sam he was climbing down a rockface headfirst and described somewhere as 'like a spider' so he was evidently really good at rock climbing. Probably a mix of low body weight plus a very strong grip, and long fingers.

If he had to follow the Fellowship after the bridge was destroyed perhaps he climbed around the edge of the room to cross the chasm?

That's an idea. It doesn't seem likely that the Dwarves would try to smooth stone walls they couldn't reach, so Gollum likely found plenty of hand-holds. My question is: was the Ring enough of a lure for Gollum to try climbing on a (presumably) sheer rockface over a nearly infinite chasm? Wouldn't he try some other way first?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lastande Took

That's an idea. It doesn't seem likely that the Dwarves would try to smooth stone walls they couldn't reach, so Gollum likely found plenty of hand-holds. My question is: was the Ring enough of a lure for Gollum to try climbing on a (presumably) sheer rockface over a nearly infinite chasm? Wouldn't he try some other way first?

The orcs leave Moria, so there must be alternate ways to cross the chasm. And though Gollum can climb like a spider, he still would need a path between the two sides of the chasm (i.e. he cannot jump across).

[Findegil]

Even so, I don't believe that was his way, there was water at the bottom of the chasam and we know the Gollum could swim.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Would Gollum have been trapped? I mean there are no waters (That I know of) in Moria that house fish. So he probably would have eaten Goblins as he did time to time in his old abode. He would have had to learn secret hidden ways. I understand the East Gate was protected by the bridge but at the same time it creates a tough point of advance for an outgoing army as well. They probably had special Outswinging doors hidden along the exit way. Which he found and frequented in his hunt.

Ha I googled a question about Gollum’s lake vs the lake Gandalf and the Balrog fell, I had secretly hoped but doubted, they were one and the same, alas they are not. And this thread came up. Amazing so much discussion has been forgotten.

Anywho, I’ve been thinking about Gollum in Moria. The generally accepted version is he went there in an attempt to cut straight across. But looking at the map he was a prisoner in Mirkwood then escaped and headed towards the Shire. Moria is a far way south why wouldn’t he have gone due west and found his old hunting grounds? Granted the orca used their “front porch” to capture the dwarves but I have to believe those tunnels also held an exit to the west.

Gollum being in Moria is so strange to me.

[Galadriel55]

If the mystery/adventure genre taught me anything, the answer is the ventilation shafts.


Seriously though, it would explain why the small and lithe Gollum could pass through while the Orcs wouldn't even consider the possibility of an exit there.

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Anywho, I’ve been thinking about Gollum in Moria. The generally accepted version is he went there in an attempt to cut straight across. But looking at the map he was a prisoner in Mirkwood then escaped and headed towards the Shire. Moria is a far way south why wouldn’t he have gone due west and found his old hunting grounds? Granted the orca used their “front porch” to capture the dwarves but I have to believe those tunnels also held an exit to the west.

Gollum being in Moria is so strange to me.

It's not that strange if you look at the map. We know that after escaping the Elves he went south in the direction of Dol Guldur, and Dol Guldur is level with Lorien on the map. I often forget that Mirkwood reaches pretty far south, it just is not inhabited by Elves in those regions.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

If the mystery/adventure genre taught me anything, the answer is the ventilation shafts.


Seriously though, it would explain why the small and lithe Gollum could pass through while the Orcs wouldn't even consider the possibility of an exit there.

Is... Is that you Gordis?

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think Gollum climbed out of a light-shaft/window. He was a small, very agile creature and could climb like a spider.

While I think Gollum might have been able to pull something like that off in another place, Moria just seems to vast and the craftsmanship too superior (I Imagine something akin to the masonry of the Incas) for this to be an actual possibility.

Even if he could, the odds of falling to his death was probably to great for him to try the venture.

Also Legate has a fair point.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

If he could do that, he would have done that ages ago. But we are told that he was actually stuck in Moria and couldn't get out - he couldn't open the Western gate, because the doors were too heavy for him, and in the East, there were the Orcs. So if he could have used any of the shafts, he would have done so before. No, this won't hold.

[Huinesoron]

On glancing over the thread, I think several people have struck on the correct answer but not realised why. In my view, Gollum knew where the exits to Moria were, but (as has been cited) couldn't use them: one he couldn't open, the other was guarded by Orcs. When the Fellowship came through, Gollum knew where they were headed - it's pretty obvious, there's only two doors and they're moving east! After checking that they weren't up to anything sneaky in the night, he simply went through the eastward arch and waited for them in sight of the Great Gate. I doubt he expected them to show up with a Balrog in tow, but the plan worked.

Why is this the correct answer? Because it's exactly what he did to Bilbo!

Originally Posted by Riddles in the Dark

“It said so, yes; but it’s tricksy. It doesn’t say what it means. It won’t say what it’s got in its pocketses. It knows. It knows a way in, it must know a way out, yes. It’s off to the back-door. To the back-door, that’s it.”

[...]

“Then let’s stop talking, precious, and make haste. If the Baggins has gone that way, we must go quick and see. Go! Not far now. Make haste!”

Having lost track of the person with the Ring - or, in the LotR case, having seen them enter the larger halls where he couldn't guarantee he'd stay hidden behind them - Gollum simply went on ahead to the exit and waited to catch them there.

Come to think of it...

Originally Posted by Shelob's Lair

Sam gasped and gathered all his remaining breath to shout. 'Look out behind! ' he yelled. 'Look out master! I'm' - but suddenly his cry was stifled.

A long clammy hand went over his mouth and another caught him by the neck, while something wrapped itself about his leg. Taken off his guard he toppled backwards into the arms of his attacker.

`Got him! ' hissed Gollum in his ear.

... he did it a third time!

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

On glancing over the thread, I think several people have struck on the correct answer but not realised why. In my view, Gollum knew where the exits to Moria were, but (as has been cited) couldn't use them: one he couldn't open, the other was guarded by Orcs. When the Fellowship came through, Gollum knew where they were headed - it's pretty obvious, there's only two doors and they're moving east! After checking that they weren't up to anything sneaky in the night, he simply went through the eastward arch and waited for them in sight of the Great Gate. I doubt he expected them to show up with a Balrog in tow, but the plan worked.

Why is this the correct answer? Because it's exactly what he did to Bilbo!



Having lost track of the person with the Ring - or, in the LotR case, having seen them enter the larger halls where he couldn't guarantee he'd stay hidden behind them - Gollum simply went on ahead to the exit and waited to catch them there.

Come to think of it...



... he did it a third time!

hS

Excellent catches! In the trade we would call this "pattern and practice."
To quote Blofeld, "One time is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action."