The gods must be... blind?

[Inziladun]

But when [the Valar] were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; and they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it.

But the other Ainur looked upon this habitation set within the vast spaces of the World, which the Elves called Arda, the Earth; and their hearts rejoiced in light, and their eyes beholding many colours were filled with gladness...

I see this as just the difference between seeing something in a dream, and physically experiencing it.
Before, the Ainur had no knowledge of, nor indeed any use for, sight. Ilúvatar put the vison into their minds, which gave them their first 'preview' of what the Music would be like when it was brought into being. When they actually saw the realm of Arda made physical it was even more amazing to them.

x/d with Mithalwen

[Morthoron]

Based on the Valar's action (or inaction) during most of the first 2 Ages of Middle-earth, I would have to say they remained blind. And hard of hearing as well.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Based on the Valar's action (or inaction) during most of the first 2 Ages of Middle-earth, I would have to say they remained blind. And hard of hearing as well.

Don't forget that by the end of the Third Age they had managed to lose two Istari. Not to mention that out of 5 chosen, exactly one managed to fulfill what they were supposed to do. Sometime I wonder how the Valar came up with that particular combination of them. Why did Manwe let the choices of Saruman (Aule's pupil) and Radagast (who seems the type to be Yavanna's pupil) become a marital spat gone very very wrong?

Does Aule have some kind of chemical floating around in his workshop that makes the beings in there go crazy? Aule makes Dwarves; Sauron becomes a Dark Lord; Saruman tries to become a Dark Lord; Feanor turns into a homicidal paranoid elf; the Noldor in general become nutcase rebels. The only normal one seems to be Mahtam and I bet he secretly runs around killing bugs with a flamethrower or something. You can't be Feanor's father in law and teacher without being half insane.

Not Very Serious Conclusion: Whatever the Valar had that allowed them to be so far out of reality I want some. After all who's to say that Gandalf really got his smoking habit from hobbits and not Manwe and Varda who were too busy smoking to remember the people they were supposed to be watching. "Sauron? Who's tha-AAAAH GIANT PURPLE BUNNY WITH GREEN WINGS AND FLAMES FOR EYES!!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"

[Blind Guardian]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Don't forget that by the end of the Third Age they had managed to lose two Istari. Not to mention that out of 5 chosen, exactly one managed to fulfill what they were supposed to do. Sometime I wonder how the Valar came up with that particular combination of them. Why did Manwe let the choices of Saruman (Aule's pupil) and Radagast (who seems the type to be Yavanna's pupil) become a marital spat gone very very wrong?

Does Aule have some kind of chemical floating around in his workshop that makes the beings in there go crazy? Aule makes Dwarves; Sauron becomes a Dark Lord; Saruman tries to become a Dark Lord; Feanor turns into a homicidal paranoid elf; the Noldor in general become nutcase rebels. The only normal one seems to be Mahtam and I bet he secretly runs around killing bugs with a flamethrower or something. You can't be Feanor's father in law and teacher without being half insane.

Not Very Serious Conclusion: Whatever the Valar had that allowed them to be so far out of reality I want some. After all who's to say that Gandalf really got his smoking habit from hobbits and not Manwe and Varda who were too busy smoking to remember the people they were supposed to be watching. "Sauron? Who's tha-AAAAH GIANT PURPLE BUNNY WITH GREEN WINGS AND FLAMES FOR EYES!!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"

True and funny. I think that while in the Void there was no light and nothing to see. But when they came onto Arda there was stuff to see so there had to be light. Unless YOU want to be running into trees and stubmling over rocks! (then Melkor would have said: let's steal the Flame Imparshable! And the other would have beat him up. What? Punish him and he might not have done anything )

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Don't forget that by the end of the Third Age they had managed to lose two Istari. Not to mention that out of 5 chosen, exactly one managed to fulfill what they were supposed to do. Sometime I wonder how the Valar came up with that particular combination of them. Why did Manwe let the choices of Saruman (Aule's pupil) and Radagast (who seems the type to be Yavanna's pupil) become a marital spat gone very very wrong?

to reluctanctly get more serious after a unfloolowably funny post but to go slightly off topic - I think I read in "Mr Baggins" that Tolkien reconsidered and felt that Radagast did not entirely fail but that his special relationship with the birds facilitated the eagles' crucial interventions in both the Quest of Erebor and at the end of The War of the Ring.

[LadyBrooke]

Radagast did do good but I question the particular wisdom of sending him and Saruman both. Usually when you want something done like the destruction of the dark lord you at least chose members who won't belittle other member of the group. Saruman on the other hand seem s to feel free to make fun of Radagast.

And besides if it were me I wouldn't have chosen any of Aule's followers. Whether it is the desire to make things or something else, they seem far too easy to lead astray

[Absinthe]

Maybe it was setting a thief to catch a thief - one follower of Aule might best understand another and be more effective in the fight against them. It didn't work out but it doens't mean it was wrong to send him.

It was the sequence of events catalysed by Saruman's treachery that gave the quest a chance of success.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I have long wondered about the fact that Sauron and Saruman both started out as Maiar of Aulë. A while back it occurred to me that perhaps the issue that lead both of them, as well as Melkor and Aulë himself, into trouble (and why there was so much conflict between those two Valar) is one of materialism. Not necessarily materialism as we think of it (although heaven knows it was a failing of Melkor's) but rather that both Aulë and Melkor dealt heavily with the very material aspects of Arda. A love for the substances of the incarnate world can, in the right (or wrong) kind of mind be all too easily twisted into a lust. Aulë loved those things so much he strayed into error because he wanted to teach the incarnate Children before it was time for them to awaken; in Melkor and the others, it became a desire to control/own the incarnate world. Obviously, most of Aulë's people avoid that failing, but one might suppose that they are familiar with the desire. Thus it may have made perfectly good sense to send one of his Maiar as an Istar, presuming that they may have better insight into the workings of Sauron's mind — though I would've been leery about letting someone who was so eager to go have the job. (I feel the same way about a lot of politicians. )