Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

The most disappointed I'd ever been was when, upon meeting a friend of a friend whom I was told also "loved Lord of the Rings" I asked this question and received the notorious response:

"What's a Balrog?"

Does anyone else around here despise it when someone who has only watched the movies says that they love Lord of the Rings?
I find them to be thoroughly aggravating...

*ahem* On the topic. I think they had wings, but they couldn't fly. Sort of like chickens and dodos, if you get what I mean.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Sort of like chickens and dodos, if you get what I mean.

The longest recorded flight of a chicken was 13 seconds. I learned this from a poster on a bathroom stall of a building I sauntered into because nobody bothered to shut the door and I needed a restroom. I thought you'd like to know.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

The longest recorded flight of a chicken was 13 seconds.

The fact that figures of that kind have an 89.9847353% chance of having been made up on the spot notwithstanding, chickens can indeed fly a little bit, so that leaves dodos.

Let's try it out:
"Ai!" wailed Legolas. "A dodo! A dodo is come!"

Hmmm.

[Morsul the Dark]

I don't understand why they can't exist for show... like A snake with a fringed neck or the Sarcastic Fringhead Fish

[Morthoron]

'Winged speed', ladies and gentlemen, 'winged speed':

'Swiftly they [Morgoth's Balrogs] arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.'

Now, you may believe the phrase 'winged speed' (in Shakespearean pronunciation, 'wing-ed speed') is a metaphor; however, in context to the sentence as a whole, 'Swiftly they arose' indicates lift or ascent. Tolkien uses the words 'passed...over' and not merely 'crossed' Hithlum, which also refers to an overhead route, and a 'tempest of fire' ('tempest' defined as a storm or squall) would be defined as a firestorm from above. 'Arose', 'passed...over', 'winged speed', 'tempest' -- all indicative of flight, ascent or heights.

In addition, have any of you ever looked at the distance between Hithlum and Lammoth, and were you aware that Ered Lómin (the Echoing Mountains) separated Hithlum from Lammoth? To put it in context with the internal logic of the story, the balrogs 'arose', 'and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum' -AND- over Ered Lomin, and they alighted into 'Lammoth as a tempest of fire.'

The Balrogs were called by Morgoth in an emergency, a life and death situation where minutes counted. They did not run like some cartoon characters -- feet whizzing in a cyclonic blur like Speedy Gonzalez or the Roadrunner -- and simply scaled Ered Lómin like some mega-hikers hyped up on meta-amphetamines, all in an appropriate amount of time to swiftly aid Morgoth. The very idea is absurd. The passage only makes sense if they had wings and flew over the mountain in time to save their master.

As far as Durin's Bane, when was the last time he had a chance to fly in Moria? Would flight even be possible in such unlit caverns? Where would he fly to? That he fell when the bridge collapsed does not mean that he couldn't fly; on the contrary, there is such a thing as 'lift' in aeronautics. The Balrog was in free-fall, a nose-dive, and could not maintain sufficient 'lift' because of his great body mass.

In conclusion, Balrogs have wings because it looks much cooler than a plain, old, wingless demon. How insipid! How dreadfully mundane! Argue amongst yourselves, I have all the data I need to make an informed decision.

[Mister Underhill]

Ah (or should that be 'Ai'?), the Balrog Wars. I am fortunately comfortably retired from same, but this thread brings back memories, particularly this, Morth:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

'Winged speed', ladies and gentlemen, 'winged speed': [snip]

I deployed this same argument during a campaign over nine years ago (OMG). I think just about every scrap of Balrog information and evidence, no matter how tenuous or tangential, has been battled over here at one time or another, but it's nice to see one of the more obscure arguments independently confirmed, as it were.

Ten years later and something I said back then seems even more true today -- arguing Balrog wings is like arguing religion or politics. The odds of actually converting someone to your way of thinking are practically nil.

In fact, the ground is so tenaciously contested that this, from Kuru --

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I may be willing to partially concede a small point. [regarding some basically inconsequential detail about the doors of the Chamber of Mazarbul]

-- was a MAJOR victory, of which songs shall be sung and epic poems shall be written hereafter. Seriously, I gotta get going on those poems. They're not gonna write themselves. Anyway, there was feasting, wine, and wenches that night, I assure you.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

The fact that figures of that kind have an 89.9847353% chance of having been made up on the spot notwithstanding, chickens can indeed fly a little bit, so that leaves dodos.

94.223^3% of people may believe that you just completely invented that statistic.

Nevertheless, I tend toward "just because they're made out of shadow doesn't mean they aren't real," combined with a healthy dose of "just because a body part exists doesn't mean it has to work: just look at wisdom teeth and appendices; not only are they not-useful, they seem to be designed specifically to make our lives WORSE."

Try telling me shadows don't exist! Don't be hatin' just because them vestigial shadow appendages are dysfunctional in an enclosed subterranean environment.

I like to think Gandalf's last words were a shrouded insult to Roggie.

"Fly, you fools!" he yelled, but nobody heard his next muttered sentence: "Because the balrog can't. Suck it, balrog!"

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

The longest recorded flight of a chicken was 13 seconds. I learned this from a poster on a bathroom stall of a building I sauntered into because nobody bothered to shut the door and I needed a restroom. I thought you'd like to know.

I already know that fact, but I was talking on a general note.

[Kuruharan]

...hey...wait a minute...

And besides, I've already changed my mind once already. I was a pro-winger *way* back in the ancient mists of time before I even joined this site.

where minutes counted

I'm not so sure that is necessarily the case. I think it possible that a personal duel between Morgoth and Ungoliant would have taken days...especially since she was trying to strangle him rather than eat him. I doubt Morgoth was passive against her and he was the great primeval evil after all.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm not so sure that is necessarily the case. I think it possible that a personal duel between Morgoth and Ungoliant would have taken days...especially since she was trying to strangle him rather than eat him. I doubt Morgoth was passive against her and he was the great primeval evil after all.

The terms 'swiftly', 'winged speed' and 'tempest' indicate great haste, they do not indicate a leisurely hike over the mountains:

"Heidi!"

"Grandfather!"

"Heidi! Heidi!"

"Grandfather! Grandfather!"

We are not talking about donning one's lederhosen and strolling along the goat paths picking wildflowers on the way to grandfather's chalet.

At the point Morgoth is crying out in lamentations, he no longer has a viable defense against Ungoliant, grown monstrous from gorging herself on the Two Trees. She surpasses him in terror and strength. He is in dire straits and about to be overwhelmed. The Balrogs are not marching for days, they are flying with 'winged speed'. All the several descriptors in the passage I provided indicate flight and not walking or running.

[Kuruharan]

I was not proposing a leisurely hike across the countryside. The distance involved would add to their haste.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

An aspect that has not, not my knowledge, been previously mentioned is that of the balrog's long sleep. Two factors would contribute to the theory that it had wings, yet did not use them. For one, we all know that neglect and disuse produces atrophied muscles. After centuries, even ages of hibernation, the balrog was not able to move its wings because the muscles had deteriorated.

The second aspect is that which Shakespeare called "to sleep, perchance to dream". Dreaming for such a long time may have caused the balrog to forget that it had wings. We all know how disoriented we can be when rudely awakened out of a dream! By the time it remembered its wings, and the additional time it took to remember *how* to use them, it failed miserably because it *could not*.

All further posts and arguments are redundant: the mystery has thusly been solved.

Thank you - really, applause is not necessary.