Do Balrogs Have Wings? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kuruharan · 09-13-2010, 07:36 AM

...hey...wait a minute...

And besides, I've already changed my mind once already. I was a pro-winger *way* back in the ancient mists of time before I even joined this site.

Quote:

where minutes counted

I'm not so sure that is necessarily the case. I think it possible that a personal duel between Morgoth and Ungoliant would have taken days...especially since she was trying to strangle him rather than eat him. I doubt Morgoth was passive against her and he was the great primeval evil after all.

Morthoron · 09-13-2010, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm not so sure that is necessarily the case. I think it possible that a personal duel between Morgoth and Ungoliant would have taken days...especially since she was trying to strangle him rather than eat him. I doubt Morgoth was passive against her and he was the great primeval evil after all.

The terms 'swiftly', 'winged speed' and 'tempest' indicate great haste, they do not indicate a leisurely hike over the mountains:

"Heidi!"

"Grandfather!"

"Heidi! Heidi!"

"Grandfather! Grandfather!"

We are not talking about donning one's lederhosen and strolling along the goat paths picking wildflowers on the way to grandfather's chalet.

At the point Morgoth is crying out in lamentations, he no longer has a viable defense against Ungoliant, grown monstrous from gorging herself on the Two Trees. She surpasses him in terror and strength. He is in dire straits and about to be overwhelmed. The Balrogs are not marching for days, they are flying with 'winged speed'. All the several descriptors in the passage I provided indicate flight and not walking or running.

Kuruharan · 09-13-2010, 12:34 PM

I was not proposing a leisurely hike across the countryside. The distance involved would add to their haste.

Estelyn Telcontar · 09-14-2010, 07:31 AM

An aspect that has not, not my knowledge, been previously mentioned is that of the balrog's long sleep. Two factors would contribute to the theory that it had wings, yet did not use them. For one, we all know that neglect and disuse produces atrophied muscles. After centuries, even ages of hibernation, the balrog was not able to move its wings because the muscles had deteriorated.

The second aspect is that which Shakespeare called "to sleep, perchance to dream". Dreaming for such a long time may have caused the balrog to forget that it had wings. We all know how disoriented we can be when rudely awakened out of a dream! By the time it remembered its wings, and the additional time it took to remember *how* to use them, it failed miserably because it *could not*.

All further posts and arguments are redundant: the mystery has thusly been solved.

Thank you - really, applause is not necessary.

Nerwen · 09-14-2010, 07:36 AM

*applauds anyway*

Puddleglum · 09-14-2010, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

An aspect that has not, not my knowledge, been previously mentioned is that of the balrog's long sleep. ... neglect and disuse produces atrophied muscles. ...Dreaming for such a long time may have caused the balrog to forget that it had wings.

Good point imo about muscle atrophy.

I'm not so sure about the forgetting, tho, as the Balrog had been awake again for several hundred years - certainly long enough to notice these things on its back and think about what they were for.

Of course, being *inside* the mines for that whole time it would not have much (if any) opportunity to use the wings for flying <not much space for it>.

Inziladun · 09-14-2010, 12:03 PM

One thing I've wondered about is this: if the Balrogs could really fly, why couldn't they have been searching for Gondolin from the air, after Húrin gave away its general location to Morogth? Why did it take the capture of Maeglin to allow the city to be found?

Sure, the Eagles were present to keep watch, but would a Balrog really not be up to facing a giant bird?

Galadriel · 10-15-2010, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

One thing I've wondered about is this: if the Balrogs could really fly, why couldn't they have been searching for Gondolin from the air, after Húrin gave away its general location to Morogth? Why did it take the capture of Maeglin to allow the city to be found?

Sure, the Eagles were present to keep watch, but would a Balrog really not be up to facing a giant bird?

Another point...why would the Balrog in Moria have 'leaped across the fissure' instead of flown? I'm sure this has been addressed before. Not sure why I just said that. Only thing is I'm assured that Balrogs have wings but cannot fly.

skip spence · 09-14-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

All further posts and arguments are redundant: the mystery has thusly been solved.

Nice try!

I feel obliged to point out that even though your assumptions were to be correct and the Balrog really was suffering from muscle atrophy and amnesia that would only help to explain why it couldn't fly if it had wings. Your arguments do nothing to prove or disprove that the Balrog had wings in the first place. And yes I'm aware they were tongue-in-cheek and, you know, the very idea of winged Balrogs vainly flapping their stunted wings like a barn-yard chicken is very amusing for sure...

Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-13-2010, 11:50 AM

Aha!

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...in_873x627.jpg

HerenIstarion · 10-14-2010, 01:48 AM

Do you mean to say Balrogs had attachable plastic wings?

View Poll Results: Do balrogs have wings?
Yes	114	58.16%
No	82	41.84%
Voters: 196. You may not vote on this poll

09-13-2010, 12:34 PM	#3
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	Do Balrogs Have Lederhosen?!!!! I was not proposing a leisurely hike across the countryside. The distance involved would add to their haste. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... Last edited by Kuruharan; 09-13-2010 at 12:35 PM. Reason: My spelling failed me.

09-14-2010, 07:31 AM	#4
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	An aspect that has not, not my knowledge, been previously mentioned is that of the balrog's long sleep. Two factors would contribute to the theory that it had wings, yet did not use them. For one, we all know that neglect and disuse produces atrophied muscles. After centuries, even ages of hibernation, the balrog was not able to move its wings because the muscles had deteriorated. The second aspect is that which Shakespeare called "to sleep, perchance to dream". Dreaming for such a long time may have caused the balrog to forget that it had wings. We all know how disoriented we can be when rudely awakened out of a dream! By the time it remembered its wings, and the additional time it took to remember how to use them, it failed miserably because it could not. All further posts and arguments are redundant: the mystery has thusly been solved. Thank you - really, applause is not necessary. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

09-14-2010, 07:36 AM	#5
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	applauds anyway __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

09-14-2010, 12:03 PM	#7
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,039	One thing I've wondered about is this: if the Balrogs could really fly, why couldn't they have been searching for Gondolin from the air, after Húrin gave away its general location to Morogth? Why did it take the capture of Maeglin to allow the city to be found? Sure, the Eagles were present to keep watch, but would a Balrog really not be up to facing a giant bird? __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

10-13-2010, 11:50 AM	#10
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Aha! http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...in_873x627.jpg __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.

10-14-2010, 01:48 AM	#11
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	huh Do you mean to say Balrogs had attachable plastic wings? __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!