WW LXXXII: Return to Tol-in-Gaurhoth

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boro

Actually, my remark about the danger of a counter-reveal delayed too long was inspired by legends of a wolf-hunt before my time, where I think a wolf revealed as the Ranger, and the true Ranger didn't contest the claim until he was threatened with being lynched... and wasn't believed and was lynched.

I recall a tragedy like that which occurred well within the time we've both been wolf-hunting. It involved a brave but ill-advised Ranger by the name of Rune and a vicious, ravening she-wolf named Lhuna. I believe your distant kinsman Kent was a witness.

EDIT:X'd with Zil.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Zil

Like I said, the best bet is to look for evil-looking things in general, instead of trying to seperate them into "Cobbler things" and "wolf things". Wolves can look like Cobblers, and vice-versa.

Not to mention the fact that Boro's plan is totally over-complicated. He should stick to gatekeeping.

EDIT:X'd with Pitch.

[skip spence]

The vision of fair Lady Thinlomien lying dead on the cold and rough stone-floor haunted skip as he paced to and fro in the dim half-light of the dungeon a stone’s throw away from the other prisoners. He stopped with a shudder of fear and disgust, and then drew a deep breath and closed his eyes in an effort to regain control of his mental faculties. And now, slowly, the horrid imagine on the back of his eyes would transform into the beloved shape of the princess Finduilas, and it was spring-time in a green, sunlit meadow, and she was running towards him wearing a white dress, smiling brightly with warm and loving affection, eyes keen and sparkling, her slender arms reaching out for him to embrace.

An epiphany, skip thought to himself as he opened his eyes again, and although he felt a brief but painful sting of guilt for momentarily thinking only of himself, he could not help to realize that this dreadful event was the perfect chance for him to achieve what he had set out to do, that this was the very reason he had come along on the perilous expedition in the first place. Courage returned to the Noldo. He would reveal and extinguish the lost souls among them, these dark shape-shifters, these cruel hounds of Sauron, and he would save his friends from certain death and emerge triumphantly out of the underground with them, and Finduilas would see him for the great hero that he truly was, and then she would surely love him as he loved her and they would finally be together, always. This is how it was meant to be.

Skip returned to the others with a determined look in his eyes.

Right then. Time to hunt some wolves. Will be around on and off the rest of the Day. First a shower (enough of the uncloaking jokes now!) and then I'll try to catch up!

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Not really liking Greenie at the moment - mostly for saying Lottie 'feels genuine' when I already pointed out her reasons for suspecting me are bunk.

Since this is, in fact, Day 1, there are extremely few circumstances when I could have any reason that wasn't 'bunk'. Besides, I fail to see how my 'bunk'ish reasons affect my 'feeling genuine' at all. They're unrelated - I could have the best reasons in the world, but that doesn't mean I'd 'feel genuine'.

Anyway, I have to vote and run. I might be on in three hours or so, but don't count on it.

++ Shasta

Have a good Day...

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Not to mention the fact that Boro's plan is totally over-complicated. He should stick to gatekeeping.

So I've been told before, but I question if I can even do that with how the wolves have managed to enter this cursed city.

But totally was not thinking about the organizational complications with that, I was more or less thinking...umm why can't we do both at the same time? *shrug*

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Like I said, the best bet is to look for evil-looking things in general, instead of trying to seperate them into "Cobbler things" and "wolf things". Wolves can look like Cobblers, and vice-versa.

Hmm well cobblers tend to be intentionally confusing and all over the place to wreak havoc. And even if you choose not to listen to someone obviously stirring a pot of confusion, you're still faced with a conundrum of what do you do with someone who counts in the innocent tally but can mess the votes up later on. Where wolves at least try to make more reasonable and fair posts to try and sway the lynch in their favors.

But point taken, either through pure cobbler confusion or lying through wolf fangs yet still looking fair and reasonable, both are suspicious behaviors and that's what I will look for. No point to try to separate them.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

++Pitch

I don't like Lottie's contrived reasons to vote for me, but she more often contrives reasons to vote when she's innocent, so I'll leave her alone today. Pitch sticks out as more suspicious to me today - agreeable, doesn't touch on more than the obvious topic of the cobbler, etc.

Choose well, village.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

What a pity this conversation seems to be taking shape and people are posting really a lot only when I don't have that much time to be around anymore... and probably won't until the DL... but I will vote still.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I side with Nerwen and Shasta on this, if we see someone acting cobblerish lynch them. What kind of logic is, "wait until the end of the game when the cobbler could be the most dangerous until we do something about it?" Strike while the iron is hot, get him gone when we get the chance and where there is little damage! It is a nice perk to have the seer being able to ID the cobbler in dreams, but come now to suggest that the seer would do something as rash as jumping at any fake reveal to oust the cobbler while their are still 3 wolves abroad is kind pointless.

If I understand it correctly, I don't get this at all - are you saying we should focus on the Cobbler? See above, please: if we lynch all the Wolves, we don't need to worry about any Cobblers anymore. So I don't see what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by Ozban

You know it would be a shame, ignoring threat of cobbler completely. On the other hand, from what i got, Cobbler tends to fall into pit by himself, we are just the pendulum. I wouldn't really assign any high priority to finding him. Just get rid of him eventually when he is revealed.

Aye, the false-reveal scenarios are dangerous, but is such a theory really worth such a witch-hunt? We are starting from the scratch. Without information of any sort we will probably witness several innocent die before we find a real cobbler.

Well, it is more like this - even if we were looking for a cobbler, we won't find him, or we couldn't be sure whether he is Cobbler or Wolf, and the point is anyway, we should find the Wolves first (see above). If I understood Boro's words, then he suggests that perhaps if you have free time, you can start looking for the Cobbler. But I think the Cobbler will really either reveal him/herself through some crazy Cobblery action (heedless kamikaze-type just in order to help the WWs), or just stay behind the scenes - where, however, he/she does not have as much power until the latter days.

But anyway, this was just for the clarification of this particular point.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's more about timing than anything. And of course once you've masterfully pulled off a great fake-reveal you've got this horrible reputation of being completely untrustworthy that follows you around for a while. It's quite a burden, because it's like everyone expects you at some point to just do some crazy fake reveal again and give pay back to deceiving them previously. But it's truly just about timing and doing the exact thing which no one expects.

My advice then, if you don't want that reputation of being absolutely untrustworthy, don't go for a successful fake reveal. Although, you're already "Mr. Agreeable" 'round these parts, and don't know if that's a rep you'll be able to shed...unless you pull off a great fake reveal.

Okay, given that I am not 100% concentrating, I am not entirely sure what is this sort of dialogue with Pitch supposed to be, it just seems weird, or the point gets past me. Nonetheless, let me just say, as for horrible reputation, I think most people won't mind getting a bad reputation for a while if they happen to make a great bluff which will get them to win the game... as that's the goal, after all.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Legate - I'm not exactly comfortable with Nog myself, but I'm not exactly comfortable with you either, the way you now say ignore the cobbler, now don't, speak perfect sense at times but mostly weave those long convoluted word clouds which seem to drift any way the wind blows and are hard to get to the gist of... Another one to watch.

Only the Wolves don't ever change their opinions, Mr. Agreeable , because their "opinion" is fake, like everything they do. To see a flaw in one's thinking and to be willing to correct it is a way of the innocents, unless they are dumb bunch of people. Nonetheless, my basic stance has never changed in any radical way - it all stems from the basic understanding of what one means by "ignoring cobbler". I still think we should ignore the Cobbler. But basically simply because of what I said above (and what many have repeated so many times after me that I find it rather funny): we are not able to tell the Cobbler from a Wolf, usually. If there is someone suspicious, we just lynch him, and then we will know. Honestly, even when I consider my own experience, it is not common that we have so many suspects that we don't know whom to lynch first and start thinking which of them is the Cobbler and which one is Wolf.

Eurgh. I need to decide whom to vote, probably won't be posting anything long from now on... but I am reading...

EDIT: x.ed with Pitch and Boro. Boro, Ozban is a he And don't think you are going to confuse us with that, I am not going to discard the possibility of two of you being Wolves together, that's an old trick to pretend a gender-confusion while you know it already since last Night...

[skip spence]

Well then, I've read the thread and all this cobbler-talk obviously stands out. Some of it strikes me as silly, and some of it strikes me as right sinister, as it is strictly theoretical at this point without any cobbler suspects and is therefore a distraction from more important business, that is, deciding on a name. I fear that what we are hearing are the treacherous tongues of Sauron.

Some other impressions.

Green is being captain obvious.

Nerwen is the one most determined to stay in character whatever that means...

Boro chides people for posting too long then promptly posts a long, rather pointless and somewhat irrational post that in many ways repeats things already stated more than once.

I also agree with Legate that Nogrod's reasoning seems a bit dull toDay. Is the old master-hunter losing his touch, or is he no longer himself. Hard to say...

As it stands I might vote Shasta toDay for reasons I'd rather not disclose at this point... But I'll vote closer to the DL...

A question to Legate. What makes you single out Wilwa as especially reasonable?

[Inziladun]

Bah. I'm at work right now, and expecting an appointment in a few minutes ( @ Lommy), so I need to go ahead and vote.

I wanted to give Shasta the benefit of the doubt and entertain some other possibilities, but no one else really looks as potentially bad at the moment.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

In any case, I'm least okay with Pitch at the moment and most okay with Nerwen (mostly for her views on the cobbler). I'm going to try and sleep now - although I don't hold out too much hope considering the dark dankness of this cell.

He's "okay" with Pitch there, despite the earlier suspicion of him.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Not really liking Greenie at the moment - mostly for saying Lottie 'feels genuine' when I already pointed out her reasons for suspecting me are bunk.

Now suspicious of Greenie.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

++Pitch

I don't like Lottie's contrived reasons to vote for me, but she more often contrives reasons to vote when she's innocent, so I'll leave her alone today. Pitch sticks out as more suspicious to me today - agreeable, doesn't touch on more than the obvious topic of the cobbler, etc.

Votes Pitch. Because he wasn't talking of the Cobbler?

Well, then:

++Shasta

Not a lock by any means, but no one else jumps out as much.

x/d with all since # 77

[Pitchwife]

OK, Shasta , let's look at these points one by one:

Originally Posted by me

Indeed, I marvel at your audacity in suggesting such a thing, Master Nogrod. Holy Elbereth, there are ladies among us, and one of them a young maiden! Have you no decency?

This is called IC banter, a thing not uncommon in the early posts of Day 1. (And if you're about to quote my words about wolves loving to hide behind that back at me, please point out the wolvish content hidden in this quote.)

Originally Posted by me

Flattery will get you nowhere.

This is a semi-banter, semi-serious reply to something Legate said that made my eyebrows twitch briefly. Wolvishly agreeable? Don't think so.

Originally Posted by me

On the other hand

This is called dialectics. Thesis and antithesis, that kind of stuff. If it means I'm a wolf, then so was Hegel.

Originally Posted by me

and in the meantime I trust in the wisdom of our Seer to handle these matters without our prompting.

This may actually be the most 'agreeable' part of this post. Basically, it boils down to "It's OK for us to discuss all this, but the Gifteds can think for themselves and won't necessarily do what we tell them to". - This being my first post, I tried to be IC and use a somewhat lofty, Elvish style, which may have contributed to the impression of agreeability, I don't know.
"Thanks for the advice" - this is called irony.

Conclusion: I'm not yet convinced of my own wolvery. Not this time.

[Ozban]

My friends, what is happening to you? Yesterday's friends turning suspicious at the first sign of danger. Shall we abandon all we were because of that damned Wolf Lord reigning these dungeons? Stand up for what you are, hold on to what we were through. Hunting wolves, we put our lives on the line many times. We relied on each other, now you seem forgeting our bonds. If there are traitors among us, we will find them, whatever the cost. But let's not accuse others without any solid evidence. "Yet hope remains while the Company is true." as Lord Felagund would say. And furthermore, I can't stand the thought of Sauron's amusement when he sees us turning on each other.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I'm not yet convinced of my own wolvery. Not this time.

I'm not convinced either. Neither that you are WW, neither that you aren't.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Wolvishly agreeable? Don't think so.

And do you really think someone would cease to suspect you because you disagree with them? Wouldn't convince me at least.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I like Oz's first post, curious to see more how she plays.

I'm terribly sorry to disappoint you Boro but I'm actualy male.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And don't think you are going to confuse us with that, I am not going to discard the possibility of two of you being Wolves together, that's an old trick to pretend a gender-confusion while you know it already since last Night...

Aye Legate! You just uncovered our tactical masterpiece.

[Pitchwife]

My thoughts on everyone up to now:
INNOCENT
Pitch - the unfurriest furrier you've ever seen

FEELING OK WITH
Boro - need to go through his posts at more leisure some time, but so far he looks unalarmingly Boroish to me
Nerwen - young and impatient hunter speaks words of wisdom beyond her years, and is actively engaged.
Ozban - one post (OK, two by now) which looks quite good, and besides he gets a newbie pass toDay (although he already seems to feel remarkably at home around these parts)

NO READ
Eönwë - absent
Greenie - just one post, half good sense, half "everything's possible". No idea.
Glirdan - nothing in his posts that really stood out to me, either pro or con.
Inziladun - I've given up all illusion about being able to read him. Sparse posts with good reason in them, involved in the discussion and still detached somehow, the usual Zil whatever his role. No clue.
skip - er, what?
wilwa - almost made it into the OK category, but not quite. Speaks a lot of common sense, but has no suspicions - really? I mean, come on, there's been quite a bit of discussion and controversy toDay, nothing there stood out to you?

FEELING QUEASY ABOUT
Legate - his response to my #52, second paragraph, looks fair enough, but still, he feels too vague to me, it's hard to get a grip on him, like grappling with a mollusc; makes me feel like, argh!
Nogrod - see #48, the second quote and my comment there; also calling for open suspicions but not giving any himself yet (as far as I could see); something's off there.

THERE BE A WOLF HERE?
Lottie
Shasta
These two deserve a post of their own, and I'm already x-ing with skip and Oz, so this goes out first.

[Glirdan]

All of this continued talk about the Cobbler is starting to give poor ol' Glirdy a headache on top of this nasty cold that has seemed to take control

Okay, back to serious.

I'm thankful that Legate brought up all this Cobbler talk as it has kept people talking, as was his intention. Yet Pitch has stirred some interesting points here about our conversation starter.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Legate - I'm not exactly comfortable with Nog myself, but I'm not exactly comfortable with you either, the way you now say ignore the cobbler, now don't, speak perfect sense at times but mostly weave those long convoluted word clouds which seem to drift any way the wind blows and are hard to get to the gist of... Another one to watch.

Yet this could simply be a very confused Legate....which I doubt. He is not the type of player to be confused easily. The wishy-washyness of his "Ignore the cobbler!" to his "Don't ignore the cobbler" has got me uneasy.

But I'm also rather uneasy about Pitch at the moment. His whole post defending himself against Shasta seems a little too defensive.....Yet I've suspected people of this before and it always turns out their innocent. I won't vote for PItch toDay, but will certainly be keeping an eye him.

And we have votes:

Lottie --------> Shasta
Shasta ------> Pitch

I would not put it past one of the three being a Wolf. The only question is which one.

EDIT: X'ed with Pitch