How big was Ancalagon?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Vultur

Yes, but I don't think you can break Everest with a blue whale, even if you drop it from space.

That would be an interesting experience. You know, in the name of science...

Anyway, I don't think you can take the depiction of the War of Wrath too literally. It's highly mythological in it's outline, and also, from an outside perspective, a much older text, and should be read differently to more detailed and realistic first age stories like Coh.

[Lalaith]

I know its a bit blasphemous but think of Merlin - of the Dragon crashing down on Camelot and breaking the towers. It would happen. I agree with Morthoron, that the "towers" were constructions of Morgoth, not of nature.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I know its a bit blasphemous but think of Merlin - of the Dragon crashing down on Camelot and breaking the towers. It would happen. I agree with Morthoron, that the "towers" were constructions of Morgoth, not of nature.

Actually, we know they were constructions– but that doesn't make them buildings in the normal sense:

Originally Posted by Vultur

The towers as buildings: possible. But elsewhere 'the towers of Thangorodrim' clearly means the mountain peaks: Morgoth raised them as slag-heaps, etc.

And this seems to be quite true. However, by the same token–

Originally Posted by Vultur

Yes, but I don't think you can break Everest with a blue whale, even if you drop it from space.

I can't recall any indication they were anything like as high as Everest, and they weren't natural mountains, so maybe they wouldn't be all that stable. Ancalagon would still have to be utterly enormous, however.

As has been said already, though, the account in the War of Wrath should perhaps not be taken too literally.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I can't recall any indication they were anything like as high as Everest, and they weren't natural mountains, so maybe they wouldn't be all that stable.

Actually, it is reputedly said in the History of Middle-Earth pt. IV, i.e. the Shaping of Middle-Earth (page 110, my Atlas of Middle-Earth says) that Thangorodrim (if they are indeed what is meant by the "towers", but I think they are, since they are referred to like that several times, I believe) were the highest peaks in Middle-Earth (even though above the gate the wall reached only 1000 ft, the mountains themselves were obviously a lot bigger). I would not have expected less from Morgoth anyway. But that's just a remark... anyway I think in the account of the battle we are indeed talking about a battle of epic dimensions, so the fall of Ancalagon is definitely emphasised in the account, but at the same time, I think it might be even real - I mean, not a hyperbole, but Balrogs and Sauron and Morgoth and whoever had all this syndrome of looking bigger than they seemed, and their might sort of overreached their envelope, so to say, and I am imagining Ancalagon's fall doing much more harm than it would be possible just physically... sort of, there being in any case something more than just the whatever 70 tons of meat...

[Aiwendil]

Actually, it is reputedly said in the History of Middle-Earth pt. IV, i.e. the Shaping of Middle-Earth (page 110, my Atlas of Middle-Earth says) that Thangorodrim (if they are indeed what is meant by the "towers", but I think they are, since they are referred to like that several times, I believe) were the highest peaks in Middle-Earth

The quote is from the 'Quenta Noldorinwa':

Feanor died in the hour of victory, looking upon the gigantic peaks of Thangorodrim, the greatest of hills of the world

"The world" was subsequently emended to "the hither world", presumably to allow for Taniquetil to be the highest peak in Arda.

[Nerwen]

Well, I stand corrected. However, I still think the reference is to the actual mountains, not just some buildings on them. I doubt that whole section is meant to bear analysis in terms of realistic physics.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

On the other hand, there is some precedent for Tolkien's fiery critters breaking mountains when they fall and die. The Balrog of Moria "fell from that high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin." Not quite as spectacular as Ancalagon breaking the peaks of Thangorodrim, but the Balrog was smaller, and I doubt that Tolkien ever meant that the dragon took out the mountains (ala the Bakshi interpretation of the end of the Balrog). There is also a possibility that the peaks of the reference are not those of a naturally occurring mountain range, but rather something that Morgoth deliberately fashioned to look more menacing, like spires of rock much closer together than, say, the peaks of the Himilayas.

Then again, maybe when these fire-critters fall and die, they explode in a nuclear fashion and flatten the landscape. Perhaps the Yellowstone caldera isn't a leftover from an old volcano, after all....

[Ozban]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Anyway, I don't think you can take the depiction of the War of Wrath too literally. It's highly mythological in it's outline, and also, from an outside perspective, a much older text, and should be read differently to more detailed and realistic first age stories like Coh.

I agree. Tolkien's personality should be considered. He was Filologist, expert on ancient literature. If you read "Ring of Nibelungs", "Saga of Volsungs", or Arthurian Legends, which were certainly one of his main inspirations, or if you look at works of C.S. Lewis (notably Chronicles of Narnia), who was Tolkien's close friend and has influenced him a lot, You will see that all these texts are mostly parables. And so are all of Tolkien's works, Silmarilion possibly most of all, (though that's really on personal opinion).

You really wouldn't ask where is the gate to underworld that Orfeus used in serch for Euridika. As well as doubting Arthur's foretold return when England is in gravest peril will get you nowhere. And by the way, where did Agamemnon assemble fleet of thousand warships?

I this manner I could ask how is it possible for Volcano (meaning Mount Doom) to erupt with such violence, after engulfing a piece of gold. There weren't any preliminary eruption before, or any earthshaking. And then in matter of seconds it all burst out. I'm not any volcanologist, but reality is different, prove me wrong.

My point is, that Ancalagon was pretty damn big. I wouldn't try to measure him. I see him just as manifestation of terror that Morgoth unleashed, malice that even Ainur were shocked to witness. Ancalagon is more an idea, presence, as well as Earendil, aka "Star of Hope".

I'd see Ancalagons fight with Earendil as symbol, Hope defeating Malevolence, that even the mightiest of the mighty (Valar) could not match.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Ozban

I agree. Tolkien's personality should be considered. He was Filologist, expert on ancient literature.

I believe it's 'philologist', my good fellow

[Ozban]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I believe it's 'philologist', my good fellow

Sorry, I wrote that after rather prolonged stay at local inn. And I was too "tired" to realize that english writes such words differently from my mother-language.

The image of "Cannon of Vinglot" is hilarious. But i see your point. The energy that sent Ancalagon flying onto the peaks can surely make a difference when it comes to damage caused.

[Raynor]

Stand back, I'm gonna try science!
http://impact.ese.ic.ac.uk/cgi-bin/c...s=1&tdens=2750

Distance from Impact: 500.00 meters ( = 1640.00 feet ) Projectile diameter: 30.00 meters ( = 98.40 feet ) Projectile Density: 1500 kg/m3 Impact Velocity: 100.00 km per second ( = 62.10 miles per second ) (Your chosen velocity is higher than the maximum for an object orbiting the sun)Impact Angle: 45 degrees Target Density: 2750 kg/m3 Target Type: Crystalline Rock

The Earth is not strongly disturbed by the impact and loses negligible mass.The impact does not make a noticeable change in the tilt of Earth's axis (< 5 hundreths of a degree).The impact does not shift the Earth's orbit noticeably.

Blank template: http://impact.ese.ic.ac.uk/ImpactEffects/

[Nerwen]

Ah, what fun. Let's plug some different numbers into it.

Distance from Impact: 1000.00 meters ( = 3280.00 feet )
Projectile diameter: 300.00 meters ( = 984.00 feet )
Projectile Density: 1500 kg/m3
Impact Velocity: 50.00 km per second ( = 31.10 miles per second )
Impact Angle: 90 degrees
Target Density: 2500 kg/m3
Target Type: Sedimentary Rock

The projectile begins to breakup at an altitude of 89700 meters = 294000 ft
The projectile reaches the ground in a broken condition. The mass of projectile strikes the surface at velocity 46.3 km/s = 28.8 miles/s
The impact energy is 2.27 x 1019 Joules = 5.43 x 103MegaTons.
The broken projectile fragments strike the ground in an ellipse of dimension 0.655 km by 0.655 km

Crater shape is normal in spite of atmospheric crushing; fragments are not significantly dispersed.

Transient Crater Diameter: 5.73 km ( = 3.56 miles )
Transient Crater Depth: 2.03 km ( = 1.26 miles )

Final Crater Diameter: 7.23 km ( = 4.49 miles )
Final Crater Depth: 537 meters ( = 1760 feet )
The crater formed is a complex crater.
The volume of the target melted or vaporized is 0.202 km3 = 0.0485 miles3
Roughly half the melt remains in the crater, where its average thickness is 7.85 meters ( = 25.8 feet ).