How big was Ancalagon?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I know its a bit blasphemous but think of Merlin - of the Dragon crashing down on Camelot and breaking the towers. It would happen. I agree with Morthoron, that the "towers" were constructions of Morgoth, not of nature.

Actually, we know they were constructions– but that doesn't make them buildings in the normal sense:

Originally Posted by Vultur

The towers as buildings: possible. But elsewhere 'the towers of Thangorodrim' clearly means the mountain peaks: Morgoth raised them as slag-heaps, etc.

And this seems to be quite true. However, by the same token–

Originally Posted by Vultur

Yes, but I don't think you can break Everest with a blue whale, even if you drop it from space.

I can't recall any indication they were anything like as high as Everest, and they weren't natural mountains, so maybe they wouldn't be all that stable. Ancalagon would still have to be utterly enormous, however.

As has been said already, though, the account in the War of Wrath should perhaps not be taken too literally.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I can't recall any indication they were anything like as high as Everest, and they weren't natural mountains, so maybe they wouldn't be all that stable.

Actually, it is reputedly said in the History of Middle-Earth pt. IV, i.e. the Shaping of Middle-Earth (page 110, my Atlas of Middle-Earth says) that Thangorodrim (if they are indeed what is meant by the "towers", but I think they are, since they are referred to like that several times, I believe) were the highest peaks in Middle-Earth (even though above the gate the wall reached only 1000 ft, the mountains themselves were obviously a lot bigger). I would not have expected less from Morgoth anyway. But that's just a remark... anyway I think in the account of the battle we are indeed talking about a battle of epic dimensions, so the fall of Ancalagon is definitely emphasised in the account, but at the same time, I think it might be even real - I mean, not a hyperbole, but Balrogs and Sauron and Morgoth and whoever had all this syndrome of looking bigger than they seemed, and their might sort of overreached their envelope, so to say, and I am imagining Ancalagon's fall doing much more harm than it would be possible just physically... sort of, there being in any case something more than just the whatever 70 tons of meat...

[Aiwendil]

Actually, it is reputedly said in the History of Middle-Earth pt. IV, i.e. the Shaping of Middle-Earth (page 110, my Atlas of Middle-Earth says) that Thangorodrim (if they are indeed what is meant by the "towers", but I think they are, since they are referred to like that several times, I believe) were the highest peaks in Middle-Earth

The quote is from the 'Quenta Noldorinwa':

Feanor died in the hour of victory, looking upon the gigantic peaks of Thangorodrim, the greatest of hills of the world

"The world" was subsequently emended to "the hither world", presumably to allow for Taniquetil to be the highest peak in Arda.

[Nerwen]

Well, I stand corrected. However, I still think the reference is to the actual mountains, not just some buildings on them. I doubt that whole section is meant to bear analysis in terms of realistic physics.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

On the other hand, there is some precedent for Tolkien's fiery critters breaking mountains when they fall and die. The Balrog of Moria "fell from that high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin." Not quite as spectacular as Ancalagon breaking the peaks of Thangorodrim, but the Balrog was smaller, and I doubt that Tolkien ever meant that the dragon took out the mountains (ala the Bakshi interpretation of the end of the Balrog). There is also a possibility that the peaks of the reference are not those of a naturally occurring mountain range, but rather something that Morgoth deliberately fashioned to look more menacing, like spires of rock much closer together than, say, the peaks of the Himilayas.

Then again, maybe when these fire-critters fall and die, they explode in a nuclear fashion and flatten the landscape. Perhaps the Yellowstone caldera isn't a leftover from an old volcano, after all....

[narfforc]

I do not think we can compare The Towers of Thangorodrim to any mountain or range of which we know. What we do know is that Morgoth made them from the vast (newer) delvings of Angband. These new delvings occured when Morgoth returned from his enforced stay in the house of his brother Mandos. In the Silmarillion it states:- But above this gate, and behind it even to the mountains, he piled the thunderous towers of Thangorodrim, that were made of the ash and slag of his subterranean furnaces, and the vast refuge of his tunnellings. They were black and desolute and exceedingly lofty; and smoke issued from their tops, dark and foul upon the northern sky. So, these lofty peaks seem less like great mountains, and more like huge chimneys for the darkness of industrialisation, something which pops up time and time again in the Life and Works of Tolkien. The towers of Thangorodrim are also described in The Silmarillion as reeking. It is possible that the strength of these towers have been somewhat overstated, Slag, ash and rock can be packed quite tightly, however, if reeking black smoke is issuing from fissures high on its peaks, it give thought to how that smoke gets there. I believe that it travelled up through the towers, therefore making the towers of Thangorodrim full of tunnels and cracks, and maybe very unstable.

[Formendacil]

One thing about this that has not been considered, I think, is the velocity with which Ancalagon smashed into Thangorodrim. Also, we have not considered the explosive potential of draco magnus pennatus*, which, after all, is capable of breathing fire (a known property of both the early, wingless drake model ala Glaurung, and the later winged dragon, Smaug).

Granted, I'm being a little bit facetious, but I am attempting to demonstrate that the destructive force of something need not be limited to them being dropped on something. If, for example, we imagine a giant cannon on Vingelot capable of shooting Ancalogon at Thangorodrim--and if we consider Ancalagon as a super-explosive living firecracker--we may be able to circumvent the "blue whale dropping" hypothesis.

Silly as I am being, after all, the Silmarils were anathema to evil, and we haven't exactly got details of Eärendil smiting Ancalagon--only the bare fact that he did, and the consequences. It's a bit cartoony, but imagine something like Ancalagon attempting to devour Eärendil, only to be repelled back to earth at thunderous speed when flesh touched the holy jewel, to explode as he hit the slopes of Thangorodrim. Admittedly, there's still a lot of room for hyperbole in this slightly ridiculous account...



*Great Winged Dragon, if my mangled, 2 second, Latin is right.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

On the other hand, there is some precedent for Tolkien's fiery critters breaking mountains when they fall and die.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Then again, maybe when these fire-critters fall and die, they explode in a nuclear fashion and flatten the landscape.

It's the "Dark Side" energy being released when they die <g>

Seriously, if you look at the other dragon deaths which Tolkien described, I think we have to allow for more than just a dead weight falling.

• When Glaurung was mortally stabbed, he started thrashing around breaking things.
• When Smaug received his mortal wound he shot spouting into the air, crashed down on Esgaroth, and completed the total destruction of the town by his death-flailings.

Also, if the "three peaks of Thangorodrim" were more in the style of mighty towers of slag and ash - then think how it only took a single Boeing 767 to bring down each of the WTC Towers on 9/11.
All it takes is for a thrashing Ancalagon (mightiest of the winged dragons) to weaken the supportting infrastructure of the towers enough (in his death throes) that they collapse under their weight - not unlike the WTC towers.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Pretty darn big.