A Measure of Success

[Snowdog]

Having only been in on creating and starting one RP story here on Barrow Downs (Lingering Darkness in the Shire - had to quit due to real life issues), I have to say I found it hard to open up with a free-flowing creativity. It seemed to be more 'RP story construction' than 'RP story creation'. The supposed tale 'time limit' and requests for re-edits of posts, moderator re-edits of posts, and PM questions over some minor details did little to encourage my creativity, and it actually felt more like work to write instead of enjoyment. Its likely why I didn't re-enter the RP realm here after I managed to get life sorted and was able to spend more time online.

That said..I'm full of ideas on Tolkien Middle Earth RP story outlines and settings, and even have some few post Ringwar mash-ups, but I again have to say I'm not really comfortable writing RP here on the Barrow Downs.

Just my 2¢

Edit: A month later and I guess nobody wants to, or is here to discuss this. Oh well.

[Durelin]

I agree with you, Snowdog. You find yourself bogged down with all the planning and details, and of course by all of the expectations. For some time now RPing here has been about meeting certain expectations, performing in a certain way. It does end up feeling like work.

I spent a lot of time here and am very fond of the Downs but there's a reason I found it hard time and again to keep up with RPs, to find inspiration to write here, to return to RPs after being busy or losing inspiration for a time... I used to stress out about RPs all the time!

I appreciate RPing that is 'realistic' within the world (to a degree); I appreciate good writing...I think rules are necessary, but there is such thing as over-structuring. And what develops on any site/forum is a certain mindset or style. Am I to say a certain mindset or style is wrong or bad? No, but I may or may not enjoy it.

And what do I matter? I don't. Not everyone is going to enjoy/agree with what rules, style, whatever you come up with. But the RP sections here have been struggling for some time now, so I thought it might be a good time for opinions to be discussed (rather than me just posting a complaint that you're not doing things how I want you to).

[Mithadan]

Hmmm. Durelin (and anyone else who might be following along or interested), the "conditions" that led us to create the present RPG structure do not currently exist. The whole thing began when someone spontaneously started a virtual party. It was creative, well-received, and, by and large, everyone was pretty well-behaved. Soon a few odd and end RPGs were started in the Barrow-Downs announcements forum and, after interest seemed to develop, we opened a new RPG forum, as an experiment. We admins generally ignored that forum (I was the only one that RPed with any frequency).

When the movies hit, the RPG forum exploded. Games were started, lasted ten posts, and were abandoned. Others went on forever, effectively creating cliques that excluded new players. People who could barely string five sentences together were randomly butting into games run by more advanced RPers. Members demanded access to games when no new ones were starting. People began misbehaving, fighting, etc. RPGs started that had absolutely nothing to do with Tolkien. We got more complaints from that forum (at that time) than any other. Something had to change (and banning RPGS was definitely considered).

We invited a group of members to caucus and, after a lot of debate, came up with the current system. The idea was mutliple levels for different skills. Prove yourself and you graduate to the next level. Higher levels have less restrictions. Games have to be based upon a definite Tolkien-based plot or theme with a definable end (no more never ending stories). We decided that Moderators were needed to ensure good behavior, help avoid fights, and act as mentors for newbies. It worked pretty good -- at least the chaos was over and it was better than no RPGs at all.

ANYWAY. The movies are years behind us (for now) and things are quiet again. If there is sufficient interest and someone can come up with concrete suggeations, I'd be willing to speak with the other Admins and what mods remain (if I can get anyone's attention) to discuss changes. No promises.

Durelin the floor is yours. Let's hear it...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Me. Once upon a time, I was an active RPGer. I've taken part in Shire games (Prisoner of Númenor, Assigned to Mordor (ATM), Island of Sorrow) and I ran Assigned to Mordor II (ATM 2); and I've taken part in Rohan settlements (I was a frequent participant in The White Horse Inn, one of the founding folks of the Eorling Mead Hall, and a regular of the Scarburg Mead Hall (where characters I created are still Very Important, though they've been inherited by others), and I took part in most or all offshoots thereof); and for a time I was an active writer in Gondor's Tapestry of Dreams.

I still lurk as a non-participatory consulting gossip. RPGers with questions shoot me PMs or pounce on me on Facebook, and I like that level of participation: I get to help out, but I don't have to take responsibility.

Now that I've spewed my credentials, here is how I read the situation:

There is one basic Very Big Problem that keeps people from committing to anything:

RPGs take too long.

This is caused in part by (and in return, causes) the secondary Very Big Problem:

Players are unreliable.

Obviously the constraints of everyday life are going to go a long way to determining how often and how much any one writer can contribute, but when most RPGs begin with maybe ten writers, and have an expected time line of two months, and then two years later you've got two writers typing furiously, trying to just finish the stupid story so that they can have some mental closure even though it's turned into a chore instead of anything fun... That's unpleasant.

In all honesty, can we really expect anybody to commit to an ungodly number of years to finish a project?

I think one way to revitalize the RPG forum is to impose a stricter expectation that games will not go on into eternity unless (like the Inns) they are designed to do so. If you say your game is going to be done by December, by Eru it needs to be completed by Thanksgiving.

I submit that this would provide a more manageable expectation. You can't expect players to maintain enthusiasm for a story with no direction or end point. That's like expecting an audience to remain cognizant through a full showing of the movie Australia.

While subplots are excellent (and typically helpful when it comes to adding nuance and complexity to a story arc), a STORY is:

-a series of related events with a clear beginning, middle, and end, with a defining moment which causes a significant change in the character or characters.

If we can focus (for a time anyway) on simplifying each RPG into a cohesive story with one solid, identifiable plot line, perhaps outlined with specific plot points as achievable milestones that the writers work actively toward, I think we can get writers to commit. I'm tempted to run a clearly outlined game to test this theory. I have one in mind, in any case. But that's not entirely relevant.

Dury? I know I swiped your podium... take it back and give us a rousing speech?

[Mithadan]

Thanks Feanor. Other comments? Durelin? We need more than 2 people expressing interest to even begin thinking about this.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Thanks Feanor. Other comments? Durelin? We need more than 2 people expressing interest to even begin thinking about this.

For the record, Counselor, you have 3 Downers commenting here, not 2, although I suppose you could say one expressed disinterest.

[Mithadan]

Objection overruled. Proceed.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Durelin

I agree with you, Snowdog. You find yourself bogged down with all the planning and details, and of course by all of the expectations. For some time now RPing here has been about meeting certain expectations, performing in a certain way. It does end up feeling like work.

Thanks Durelin for responding to me. A page or so of discussion since you did. I guess it takes the right person saying something here to get a discussion about RP going. Reading through it all and though there are plenty of good opinions, I somehow don’t see too much changing. Maybe if things get freed up a bit control-wise I may consider Barrow Downs as host of one of my RPs I’ve outlined.

[Mithadan]

Hmmm. Quite an active thread we have here...

I'm not going to weigh in just yet. I have some ideas and suggestions, but I'd first like to focus and sharpen this discussion. I hear a lot of different and not necessarily uniform opinions about what's wrong (and not a lot of agreement about what's right). Last time a discussion like this was held here it was done by invitation only in a private forum. This time, I'd rather be very open about things. Ironically, some of the comments I hear now are the same as I heard back then: elitist; too structured; etc. And like last time the favorable comments are often about the same things some people complain about.

I happen to agree with Snowdog (NOOO, not that!). Must be an age thing. Too much talk about what's good and what's bad, which is not to say that this dialogue hasn't been valuable. But it's time for you all to do my job for me. No egos, no fighting, but tell me what you would like to see done!

*Mithadan looks over his shoulder at the oliphant sitting in the corner -- strange, no one else seems to see it...

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

*Mithadan looks over his shoulder at the oliphant sitting in the corner -- strange, no one else seems to see it...

In the words of Eowyn, I do not wish to play at riddles. Speak plainer!

As far as what we would like to see done? Well, define "see done." If the answer is "do," I think Fea at least is taking the initiative and getting a game idea up. I myself just sent a game idea off to pio that, hopefully, will take some of the ideas that have been discussed here and try to put them into action. If, however, by "see done" you mean things for the moderators, etc., to do--I don't know how much of this is a moderator solution, since the problems don't stem as much from the rules as they do from the game owners and the players. At least in my estimation.

So the best way to clean up the RPGs is to clean up ourselves first. That, at least, is the tack that I am taking. I am using this discussion to reconceptualize my idea of how RPGs should work, and trying to come up with something that will take those new ideas and test them in the field.

But if there's a problem that no one else is seeing, I'd very much like it if you just let us know what it is.

[Snowdog]

Snowdog, if you don't mind me putting you on the spot, would you be willing to explain more concretely what it is you'd like to do and how it doesn't fit the Downs? How do you see it playing out? Which part(s) is(are) too controlling?

I don’t mind at all. I would love to do this, but being its mid-afternoon here and I’m sneaking on here at work, I’ll have to gather my thoughts on it later this evening after I get home and settled in with a beer in hand.

I just became aware a couple hours ago that this discussion had finally taken off.

[Mithalwen]

Dunno - that everyone is talking about it not doing it? He may tell us if he I suppose .. what is really fascinating me at the moment though is how or rather why Crowned Pigeon whe has never actually posted has spent most of the past two days private messaging. I may have more insightful when it isn't stupid o'clock.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

*Mithadan looks over his shoulder at the oliphant sitting in the corner -- strange, no one else seems to see it...

Ooh, I know, I know! If the Barrowdowns as an institution actively encourages members to borrow aspects of Middle Earth for their own Tolkien inspired writing projects, it will inspire a lawsuit from the Estate! Am I right?

No, really. I rather doubt any of us are intentionally ignoring something that has occurred to us, since we all appear to be actively trying to pin down a prognosis and a prescription. Playing coy, Sir Mithadan, isn't really helping any of us, nor does it help dismantle the concept of Gondorian writers or moderators as elites who need not share their information or talents with the rabble.

The only thing I can think is that you lean toward saying, "If people want to play RPGs the way other websites play them, they can go to other websites." Which is akin to saying we should allow the slow demise of our own writerly frolics within the realms of this place.

[Mithalwen]

No can't be that -
http://www.tolkienestate.com/faq/p_2/

I must admit I have mixed feelings about rule making - the WW thing seemed an overreaction to an isolated problem (letting a virtual unknown quantity mod) and I can't help feeling that some people enjoy too much making rules for others. We got a whole statute book when a Denning like judgement might have sufficed. However I stand by the uncanonical or even implausible names as capitaloffences

[Mithadan]

the concept of Gondorian writers or moderators as elites who need not share their information or talents with the rabble

I've gotta be honest, I'm surprised that this is still coming up. There's really only one game running (barely) in Gondor. Otherwise its been pretty much abandoned for about 4 years. Gondor was NEVER intended to be elitist. It was supposed to be an award or honor for skill and effort. The goal was that the majority of gamers would end up in Gondor and those who weren't yet would be newcomers.

You want Gondor gone? That's an easy one. But it doesn't solve the real issues.

[Firefoot]

I guess I don't see why there can't be room for both the types of games that Durelin and Snowdog are describing vs the type that Fea outlined. The two types are likely to attract different players (that's kinda obvious, I know), but personally I like both sorts...

The issues that need to be addressed would be: in a more free-form game, how do you make sure it doesn't wend on for years and years so that the players just slowly drop out due to RL constraints? And in a more structured game, how do you give the players some ownership in it so they don't feel like they're just going through the motions of putting a story together?

I think the key is to make the expectations clear at the beginning. If you want it not to have a set plot and you want for people to feel free to introduce twists as they desire, that ought to be explained up front. And if there's a plan for the story, that should be said upfront as well.

Personally, I don't see why all of this has to be mutually exclusive. I've always really enjoyed RP'ing at the Downs, and having been in a rather wide variety of game types and complexities I think there are things to be enjoyed about all of them.

Maybe I should also mention that I've never RP'ed anywhere else so I don't really have a feel for other ways that it can work.

I guess what might better help me conceptualize all this is this: Snowdog, if you don't mind me putting you on the spot, would you be willing to explain more concretely what it is you'd like to do and how it doesn't fit the Downs? How do you see it playing out? Which part(s) is(are) too controlling?

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Snowdog, if you don't mind me putting you on the spot, would you be willing to explain more concretely what it is you'd like to do and how it doesn't fit the Downs? How do you see it playing out? Which part(s) is(are) too controlling?

Well... let me start off with a bit on my one and only experience participating in an RP here on Barrow Downs in what was it... 2003-4... We had a good setting and outline for an RP, and some writers that wanted to commit to it. At the time the "rules" were there had to be a time limit for the conclusion of the RP, and so that in itself put, on me anyway, pressure to develop the story, write it through, and conclude it within a certain time frame before it even really started. But I gave it a go. I got a few posts into it, and I started getting PMs about my posts and requests to edit them so they would fit someone else's concept of what the RP direction should be. The first time was a minor detail and I agreed to 'tweak' my post to accommodate. another post later, I get a Pm request to edit a whole section of my post. I didn't do it, instead told them to work around it. I don't think I continued after that, being real life was drama enough and I didn't need to try and work at writing posts that were acceptable to other writers. I never had this sort of interaction anywhere else on the net I have RP'd. Instead of a free flow of interaction, it seemed that RPs had to be "scripted" here. The whole structure of the Shire, Rohan, and Gondor and how you had to 'work your way up' added to that, along with the extensive character bios and opening setting that had to be set before you could even begin to try and write a tale. Its like I said before... an RP had to be constructed, not created. Maybe that's how an RP "GAME" (as the term so lovingly is used here) is done I guess. Its was a style I obviously didn't fit into. I'm a writer not a gamer. I thrive in the spontaneous interaction of other writers who can take what is posted and use it to carry the story forward and leave hooks for others to use in their posts, etc. I understand why the stringent rules were put into place here, and the three tier forums, etc., but carrying it to the letter, with a forum mod being what I consider, overly intrusive in structuring individual RPs by copying writer's posts and putting then in their omnibus posts seemed a bit much.

Sorry about the ramble. I doubt I will ever partake in RPs here, or even post in the inns. I have tried on occasion in the past, and my ppsts were either ignored because the didn't fit into whatever plot-line had been discussed in an OOC, or whatever reason. I have also been invited to post in the inns in Rohan and Gondor, but never could push myself to put forth the effort to do so because I had to wonder if the effort coming up with characters and posts would be worth it when I had a hard time trying to figure out what all was supposed to be happening in the inn at the time. So it goes. I don't seem to have this issue on other sites, and can engage with minimal effort. I'm not saying how things are done here are worse or better than how they are done on other sites, I'm just saying that it's always been hard for me to find a comfortable niche to write here.

That said, I have enjoyed reading some of the RP threads and inns, and even got some ideas from reading them. I just can't see myself being able to meet expectations of writing here without tremendous effort on my part to 'work' it into acceptability. Barrow Downs RP"gaming" is what it is, and suits many, but not me.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

Its like I said before... an RP had to be constructed, not created. Maybe that's how an RP [i]"GAME"[i] (as the term so lovingly is used here) is done I guess. Its was a style I obviously didn't fit into. I'm a writer not a gamer. I thrive in the spontaneous interaction of other writers who can take what is posted and use it to carry the story forward and leave hooks for others to use in their posts, etc.

I think Snowdog has an important point here, the distinction between gamer and writer, between game and role play. Games are always directed by a manager--think back to Dungeon's and Dragon's--and highly organised. Think of Werewolf, which is highly structured by plot/time. A werewolf game is not really about developing character and seeing how that relates to action. (I differ on this point from others.) It's controlled. But role play isn't so highly controlled; 'play' is not always structured drama, but, well, play--imaginative combinations. Children need both play and game to develop healthily. (I mean this in the most positive way, as an essential nature of the human species.) Maybe we threw the baby out with the bathwater?

I also have some sympathy with 'dawg's comments because in several games my posts were called into question by the game owner. At one point, even my wording was questioned (and no, it wasn't spelling or grammar). In fact, I probably greatly disappointed one of the game owners because I refused to write my character the way he wanted. This meant there was no maudlin resolution between her and her father (which to my mind would have violated the character's psychology) although there still was a climactic resolution.

I also understand well dawg's idea of posting spontaneously with hooks for other gamers to pick up, because I started gaming at an Inn he ran on another forum. The Inn wandered all over the place as it was never expected to have a beginning, middle and end. (Did "Cheers" the TV show have an overarching plot? Or was it just episodic?) But it did inspire several games, as gamers worked on character and came up with ideas, and those games had some sense of direction which the writers worked within.

I've had "hooks" taken in directions completely unlike what I anticipated and this was fun, because it was challenging. I've also had 'hooks' completely ignored, to the point where I felt there were parallel projects going on and my character was being ignored. (sob! ) That happened, I think, because I was spontaneously creating actions for reactions whereas other gamers were following some master, prepared game plan. I've also found it frustrating when nothing happens for an eon after a post, because it's like talking to yourself in a void. Or some kind of writerly interruptus.

I will reiterate: I think gamers and game owners would be more committed if they felt the actual writing accomplished something that the planning hadn't already done.

And to support another point: Mark has clarified a good point about Gondor, which my word 'literary' didn't really get at, with her use of "canonical". Yes, Gondor was where the most canonical (or deliberately non-canonical) games were to be. Good games and good writing can occur in all forums, and be created by all ages, but playing consciously and deliberately with Tolkien's style--getting inside his style as he got inside language--was supposed to be the defining mark. (Sorry, no pun intended on Helen's nick.)

EDIT: Sorry, cross-posted with Formy and Mithadan.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And to support another point: Mark has clarified a good point about Gondor, which my word 'literary' didn't really get at, with her use of "canonical". Yes, Gondor was where the most canonical (or deliberately non-canonical) games were to be. Good games and good writing can occur in all forums, and be created by all ages, but playing consciously and deliberately with Tolkien's style--getting inside his style as he got inside language--was supposed to be the defining mark.

Extremely high standards (but there's nothing bad about high standards, as usually anyone who cares will rise to them - and hopefully above them). So, you've concisely pointed out the expected standards, and reasons for the Gondor forum.

I think though, and why the "elitist" sentiments have come up again, something got lost in the translation to the Gondor forum. I know it's no one's intentions on here to discourage, and make it insanely hard on new RPGers, but I think the standards you've pointed out Beth, aren't made clear enough in Gondor.

Several times it's mentioned that Gondor is the most advanced and expert RPG place. The people posting there have to live up to quality posts and the high standards. There's nothing wrong with having that advanced system, and with an end goal of hoping the place continues to grow and still keep those same "Tolkien" standards of writing. The issue becomes, there is no explanation of what you mean by "maintaining high quality posts." Quality or higher standards are vague, and subjective. Not completely subjective, but what I would call "high quality" may vary from what you call "high quality." We become lost by what the expectations for posting in Gondor are (other than...it has to be high quality!), just as Mithadan was lost when he asked what we want him to do. Combine the high expectations with, "if you don't measure up to these, you may be asked to leave Gondor, but don't feel intimidated!," and that is where the feelings of elitism come up.

We wander in the dark, not knowing what we have to do to get to Gondor, and then finally get frustrated by wandering in the dark for so long. Having an advanced RP-forum, that sets high expectations in and of itself, is not elitist. I don't feel it is, but if there are no clear and explained standards, and "if you can't maintain these standards, you shouldn't be here," does have the unintentional feel of elitism. If the purpose of Gondor is to grow and tap into the talented writers of the forum, we need guides.

Gondor is looking like another Elvenhome. That doesn't mean it needs to be completely tossed out, but life needs brought into it. I am not a writer by any means, but I know (and have met) several talented writers on this forum. Make it easier on the writers and guide members better on the RPG expectations (particularly the high ones for Gondor). I find it impossible to set standards that are too high for people, but we need to know what those standards are and help getting there to reach full potential.