The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

[Aiwendil]

RB-DF-03.5: Ekimeniso's argument about which 'silver' to retain is persuasive, so let's keep the first 'silver' and remove the second.

RB-DF-04: Actually, I don't think that the mixed metaphor (tower vs. storm) in itself is a problem, since Tolkien himself uses both of these images in QS. However, I don't think that adding the detail of Fingolfin as a lonely tree to the storm-metaphor is adequate justification for editing Tolkien's prose on so fine a level. I say pick either the QS or GA version of the passage and use that - and my inclination is to use QS since it is the fuller account and the base text for the sentences immediately before and after.

RB-DF-04.5: I have no problem with adding the detail of the echo from GA. Findegil proposes:

and he wounded Morgoth RB-DF-04.2 {with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry} <GA seven times with his sword; and the cries> of anguish that Morgoth gave <GA echoed in the north-lands>, whereat the rocks shivered, and the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay.

This seems to me to require too much verbal contortion; I would prefer Ekimeniso's:

and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish that <GA echoed in the north-lands>, whereat the rocks shivered, and the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay.

RB-DF-07.5: In my opinion, the repetition in such a short space of "There was lamentation in . . . " is unacceptable.


RB-DF-09: In QS, the flight of the Beorians and the situation of Barahir and his twelve companions is told (QS §138-139) just after the rescue of Felagund, significantly before the account of Fingolfin's death. In GA, the narrative turns away from Barahir after the rescue of Felagund and only comes back to him and his people after telling of Fingolfin's death (in GA §158-159). The solution adopted in Findegil's text is to retain QS §138 where it stands, remove §139, and then insert GA §158-159 after the death of Fingolfin. This seems to me to be problematic. Even though we have deleted QS §139, there is still redundancy between §138 and GA §158-159; the flight of most of Barahir's people and the transformation of the highland forest into the dreadful Taur-nu-Fuin are both repeated. I think we should pick one place or the other and put all the material about Barahir there - so either remove QS §138-139 or remove GA §158-159, and make any appropriate additions to the retained version from the removed version.

I would propose to remove QS §138-139 and use GA §158-159 after the death of Fingolfin:

RB-DF-09 <GA §158 Now Morgoth's power overshadowed the north-lands , but {[struck out: still]} Barahir would not retreat and defended still the remant of his land and folk in Dorthonion. But Morgoth hunted down all that there remained of Elves or Men, and he sent Sauron against them; {and all the forest of the northward slopes of that land was turned into a region of dread and dark enchantment, so that it was after called Taur-nu-Fuin, the Forest under Nightshade.} <QS and he took all the forest and the highland of Dorthonion, save the highest and inmost region, and turned it little by little to a place of such dread and lurking evil that even the Orcs would not enter it unless need drove them. Therefore it was called by the [Noldor] [Taur-nu-Fuin], which is Mirkwood, and [Deluwaith], Deadly Nightshade; for the trees that grew there after the burning were black and grim, and their roots were tangled, groping in the dark like claws; and those who strayed among them became lost and blind, and were strangled or pursued to madness by phantoms of terror.>
§159 At last so desperate was the case of Barahir that Emeldir the Manhearted his wife ... And some were there received into Haleth's folk, and some passed on to {Dorlomin}[Dor-Lómin] and the people of {Galion}[Galdor] Hador's son. ... For these were slain one by one, or fled, until at last only Barahir and Beren his son, and Baragund and Belegund sons of Bregolas, were left, and with them {[eight >]} nine desperate men whose names were long remembered in song: Dagnir and Ragnor, Radhruin and Dairuin and Gildor, Urthel and Arthad and Hathaldir, and Gorlim Unhappy. ... No help came to them and they> <QS were hunted like wild beasts, and Morgoth sent many wolves against them; and they retreated to the barren highland above the forest, and wandered among the tarns and rocky moors of that region, furthest from the spies and spells of Morgoth. Their bed was the heather and their roof the cloudy sky.>

Here I have replaced the passages concerning Taur-nu-Fuin and the plight of the hunted outlaws in GA with the fuller corresponding passages from QS.

[Findegil]

RB-DF-03.5: Agreed.

RB-DF-04: Well, metaphors are a stylistic devices, therefor this change is one for style and not for any substance.

RB-DF-04.2: Agreed.

RB-DF-07.5: Okay, so what about this:

... And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of {Gondolin}Tumladen. RB-DF-07.5 <GA {There was lamentation}[Great was the sorrow] in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him. Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth RB-DF-06 {goes ever halt of one foot since that day, and the pain of his wounds cannot}<LQ2 went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not> be healed; and in his face is the scar that Thorondor made.
§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died.> There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. ...

RB-DF-09: Aiwendils suggestion looks good to me.

About The Shibboleth and how we deal with it:
I do not remember that we ever discussed some of the matters that Ekimeniso brought up. When ever we made use of that work, we used the ideas given their (like the death of Amras in the burning ship). 'The rule of thump' (is this really an english proverb? it sounds very de{utssch-e}nglish to me) is rule 2.b):

2. Secondary priority is given to the latest ideas found among Tolkien's unpublished texts and letters, except where they:
a. violate the published canon without specifically correcting an error or
b. are proposed changes that do not clearly indicate the exact details that must be changed and how they are to be changed.

But in the case of the high Kingship or the time of Míriels death or the time of the judgement of the Valar about Finwe and Míriel we have no text of higher priority. But we had the same in the case of Myths Transformed were it was decided that MT was a (for us) unworkable plan of reconstruction. I am not completly convinced for MT and do not believe in this at all for The Shibboleth. So in the end we might have to go back to DoV and rework that chapter in light of what The Shibboleth sayes.
For the case of the high-kingship i would suggest:

§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died.> There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship RB-DF-07.2{of the Noldor}[in Hithlum], and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. <SH{The prefixion in the case of Finarfin was made by Finrod only after the death of Fingolfin in single combat with Morgoth.} The Noldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest. At that time Finrod prefixed the name of his father following the model of Fingofin so that he became know as Finarfin.> But beyond Hithlum Morgoth pursued his foes relentlessly, ...

About Thorondor living in on Thangorodrim:
I think that this story was rejected by JRR Tolkien. But I have to look that up.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

Thorondor on Thangorodrim:
The former discussion on this point was very brief but it took place in this the thread about Tuor and his coming to Gondolin. The conclusion was to keep the dwelling on Thangorodrim but to be ambigiuse about time and reason for the remove to Crisseagrim.
This decission was take especilly because of the passage after the fall of Fingolfin in LQS, were Thorondor comes from Crisseagrim.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RB-DF-07.5: Hmm, I think some of my previous post got lost somehow - I meant to propose this emendation:

Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth RB-DF-06 {goes ever halt of one foot since that day, and the pain of his wounds cannot}<LQ2 went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not> be healed; and in his face is the scar that Thorondor made. <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house. Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died. Then in great sorrow Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor>, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North.

By taking more of the passage from GA, this avoids editorial additions and redundancy while not, in my opinion, omitting any important details. Okay, so it doesn't literally include the detail that there was lamentation in Hithlum, but it does single out Fingon's particular sorrow, which actually is a detail we lose otherwise.

Or we could take the same approach but move the sentence about Gondolin to the point Findegil suggests. I think that rather than changing 'Gondolin' to 'Tumladen', however, we could just remove the second 'Gondolin':

And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of Gondolin. <GA There was lamentation {in Gondolin}there when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him.
Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth RB-DF-06 {goes ever halt of one foot since that day, and the pain of his wounds cannot}<LQ2 went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not> be healed; and in his face is the scar that Thorondor made.

<GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died. Then in great sorrow Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor>, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North.

About the Shibboleth: I am still inclined to think that the changes to the sequence of events around Miriel's death and Finwe's remarriage fall under 2b, proposed changes that would require too much tampering for us to implement. But that discussion should really wait until we revisit DoV. The other relevant principle for some points in the late writings is 5:

Information in sources of lower level priority is to be preferred over information in sources of higher level priority where the item of information in the source of higher level priority can be reasonably demonstrated to be an error, whether a "slip of the pen" or from inadequate checking of previous writing.

It still seems to me quite likely that some of the apparent deviations in the late writings are simply due to forgetfulness, rather than a deliberate changing of the story. Principles 2 and 5 don't dictate exactly where we draw the line between what to take up and what to reject, but they do frame the debate that must occur on each specific point.

is this really an english proverb?

I think there was a typo in Ekimeniso's post; the proverb is 'rule of thumb'. I think the German equivalent is 'Faustregel'.

[Findegil]

RB-DF-07.5: 'There was lamentation there when ...' is not very good. I think we can simply skip the second 'there'. Otherwise I like your second suggestion.

About the Shibboleth: It seems to be a given that we will have to discuss this issue when we came agian to DoV. But for the moment we only have to make up our mind about the case of the high-kingship of the Noldor. And in my oppinion the change in Fingolfins behavior during the march is so significant that it can not be an oversight. Also it is connected to the core issue of the essay: the sindarin names of the decendence of Finwe.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Ekimeniso]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I think there was a typo in Ekimeniso's post; the proverb is 'rule of thumb'. I think the German equivalent is 'Faustregel'.

yeah, a typo . I agree with all the proposed changes/updates.

[Findegil]

'rule of thumb': Okay, what tricked me here was, that at least in my idiom of German their exists beside "Faustregel" also "Daumenregel", with slightly but sigificant diffrences. While a "Faustregel" is a reliable and approved approximation that does shorten the calculation significantly, a "Daumenregel" is just the utterance of the feeling someone has on the subject under investigation. So while a "Faustregel might be a bit beside the real result it does point into the right direction for sure, in contrast a "Daumenregel" might be complitly of track.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

Okay, I have gone through this thread to see were we are. As fare as I can say Aiwendil has commented to the Text up to §149. But I am not quite sure where he ended with his comments. The first possible place is just before RB-DF-10.

What is left as open point in the rest of the discussion is from my point of view:
RB-DF-07.5: What about this to avoid the double Gondolin:

And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley{ of Gondolin}. RB-DF-07.5 <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him.

and
RB-DF-07 and RB-DF-07.7: I have given the number 07.7 to the proposed addition about the prefexion of Arfin to Finarfin:

§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died. Then in great sorrow Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor[ in Hithlum]> {There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor}, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. RB-DF-07.7 <Shibboleth {The prefixion in the case of Finarfin was made by Finrod only after the death of Fingolfin in single combat with Morgoth.} The Noldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, {Maedros}[Maedron] son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest. At that time Finrod prefixed the name of his father following the model of Fingofin so that he became know as Finarfin.> But beyond Hithlum Morgoth pursued his foes relentlessly, and he searched out their hiding-places and took their strongholds one by one. ...

Respectfuly
Findegil