A Measure of Success

[mark12_30]

the concept of Gondorian writers or moderators as elites who need not share their information or talents with the rabble

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I've gotta be honest, I'm surprised that this is still coming up. There's really only one game running (barely) in Gondor. Otherwise its been pretty much abandoned for about 4 years. Gondor was NEVER intended to be elitist. It was supposed to be an award or honor for skill and effort. The goal was that the majority of gamers would end up in Gondor and those who weren't yet would be newcomers.

You want Gondor gone? That's an easy one. But it doesn't solve the real issues.

As the owner of that (barely running) game... I'd like to point out that we carefully recruited participants from Rohan and The Shire; the game began in The White Horse Inn, and indeed once the game left the White Horse Inn and officially began in Gondor, I was the only Gondorian in the game (except for a guest appearance by Estelyn early on.) Littlemanpoet advanced to gamestarter status in Gondor midway through the game; so did Aylwen Dreamsong.

The main requirement in that game was that the game be as canonical as possible; that exceptions to canonicity would be brought before the entire team to be resolved; if that did not resolve the issue, we would bring it before elders of the Downs and seek their opinions as t othe canonicity of the subplot involved. I am proud (of my team!) to state that this was never necessary; all who volounteered for the game were as dedicated to writing *for* Tolkien as I was. In other words, canonicity was the main requirement for the game, and all the Rohirrim and Shirelings who joined were as adamantly pro-canonical as I was. The issue never even came up, unless I am forgetting something.

However-- currently, all but lmp and I have faded from the game completely. This will be moot in about ten or twenty more posts, which is all it will take to close the tale. ( And therein lies the delay-- I don't WANT to close it, any more than I wanted The Lonely Star to close. ) But the game was not a 'closed-to-outsiders-elitist' game.

[mark12_30]

Regarding the plotline in The Seventh Star: I don't think there is one, or hasn't been one for a long time. People rarely come and go, and few discussions happen. It is a dusty place. Sometimes I have had fun with that (I've played a mouse there, for one thing.) But it does serve as a reminder that a once flourishing place has become tired, quiet, and faded.

Oddly enough, if the posting members of The Coming Of Age Club were to post, in some sort of character, in the Inn, discussing the same things but in Tolkienese, then The Seventh Star would come to life. At least, I always thought that was what it was for. Isn't that what a real Inn is for? It takes a little work to do it in character-- but that's half the fun. We do that to some degree in "The Coming of Age Club". Be a mouse if you want to, but stop by the inn and say Hello. Have a stout, come on over to the fireplace, put your feet up by the fire, and tell me how you've been.

[Formendacil]

The point is well taken from some of the elder members that we've discussed the problems in great detail, but we need to start proposing solutions. I would quibble that these have been suggested already, but in very tentative ways, but before I can even quite get to the point of looking at concrete solutions, I think it might be helpful to recap the situation, as I see it.

Problems Facing Us in the Current Situation:

Basically, this seems to come down to a problem of numbers. The current three-tier RPing system--which, as an aside, I think was entirely valid when it started--hails back to a time when there were many more people on the Downs generally, but especially in the RP forums. This numbers problem is somewhat compounded by the popularity of WW games, which draws from the same pool of people. As Nog notes, however, RPs and WW are different in kind and cannot simply be interchanged for each other.

The general mood would add to the numbers problem the additional concern that the three-tier system is "elitist"--and, perhaps, that's a bit of a straw man position, but, hey, this is a recap... The root of the elitist complaint, in my opinion, is that the three-tier system is too much structure for so few people. In an era when the Gondorian players with status to open games were highly active, and were invited people in regularly--and when there was a lot of activity in the lower fora as well--I don't get the impression that it was too much structure or elitism. It may have been off-putting to start out "small"... but we can all list games in the Shire that were not mere babysitting hoops to jump through, but fun, even complex, stories we all enjoyed.

That was then. Now we have no gamers active in Gondor to invite those who have proven their mettle, so the forum looks even hoarier and more forbidding than it should (even if there is truly a high value of licit foreboding involved). Rohan and the Shire move along quietly, but without clear distinctions betwixt them, save the impression to newcomers and outsiders that they are hierarchical and rigid, and somewhat sluggish.

There is also the problem that games often drag on far past their expiration dates in a perpetual limbo, which decreases everyone's willingness to get involved in the next game.

Things Worth Keeping in the Current System:

Despite these problems, I don't think anyone is suggesting that we go back to the days of the Wild West--even though it would be more of a Ghost Town than a Gold Rush. I think other people should really think through what they like about the system as we have it. They should also think, though, about whether or not these qualities are something that need to be present throughout the gaming fora generally, or if they would be sufficiently present if they were only in the rules for a particular game.

Speaking for myself, the one thing about the current system that I would not want to lose is the forum-moderator(s). Pio plays an indispensible role, and I think that in a restructured Gaming Forum we would still want someone to approve new games, with an eye to whether they're sufficiently Tolkien, and to help with general forum maintenance/policing. In case it's not obvious, I don't think we want heavy-handed mods (nor do I think we have them now), but we do need someone to open/close/merge threads, and I think it's important besides that for the forum to have someone who can serve as a Court of Appeals, if disputes break out between players. Bêthberry's anecdote about moderating in a way comparable to the Books forum was very interesting to me. I think the general hands-off, helpful approach is definitely worth emulating, and I certainly don't want to imply that she did things wrong before, but speaking from my own experience as the Gaming Moderator on another (albeit less excellent or literary) forum, I think it does require a special sort of interest... mostly, though, it's about having common sense, fairly regular availability, and a good handle on both Tolkien and RPing.

However, since this is something I want to keep that we already have, perhaps I've been unnecessarily long-winded.

Suggestions for a New Gaming Forum

What follows are my own thoughts, intended most to get the ball rolling.

I think we should have:

1. Two forums, rather than the current three.

2. These fora should be distinguished between "Doriath" (Tightly Controlled) and "Rivendell" * (Loosely Controlled). In a sense, this will parallel to the current "highly babysat in the Shire" and mark's free expressionism in Gondor, but not exactly.

3. Doriath:

a. Games in Doriath may be started by any BDer who wants to start a game (no prior experience required), though they will have to run the game by the Mods for approval.

b. The game must adhere to all the current rules about being Middle-earth based.

c. The mods might also deny someone the right to start a game on the basis of past failures to run a successful game, but this need not be hard and fast rule.

d. The game owner will be the game moderator, and will have a fairly "controlled" game. In plot vs. character terms, these would be plot-driven games, and would be the kind of games that Snowdog can't really play. The powers of the game owner might be considered comparable to those of a WW mod: broad discretion, subject to their own posted rules and those of the forum.

e. They would also be required to have a definite timeframe (3 weeks, 3 months, 3 years, whatever), and players would have a right to expect the game to end at the end of the advertised timeline. If the game was not over, players would have a right to drop out of the game, regardless of its status, or to remain aboard with the moderator (who would also have the right to drop out) and continue--but the continuation would also require a deadline.

f. Games would be by invitation or open to interested comers according to the preference of the game owner.

g. In the event of the disappearance of the game owner, the players could either request and propose a new game owner from among their numbers or the game could be terminated. Alternatively, the disappearing game owner could have a co-owner from the beginning, or appoint one when the crisis arose.

4. Rivendell:

a. The Rivendell forum would be for open-ended games (those with no deadlines) and for character-driven games where collaborative writing rather than a plot idea was the main motivator.

b. Anyone on the Downs could propose a game in this forum, subject to Mod approval. The Mod(s) would be within their rights to refuse newcomers and/or inexperienced players.

c. Because of the collaborative nature, there would be no formal game owner. A game might be, in practice, led and/or founded by someone, but that person's disappearance would not automatically cause the game to be closed or reassigned, since their role would not formally be to run the game.


So... umm... that's a lot of writing. Thoughts?






*For the sake of having a name, Doriath and Rivendell is what I'm using in this proposal. "The Shire" and "Rohan" could be retained or "the Shire" and "Gondor," or new names devised, or whatever... I just needed names.

[Mithadan]

Formendacil, good post.

Time to focus now. Here's the issues list based upon what people are saying, in no particular order. Some may be beyond anyone's control, but things can be fixed.

- How to increase activity.

- How to get newcomers involved in games.

- How to make the forums more "user friendly".

- Pace of games, frequency of posting, etc.

- Length of games (in my view never ending stories will still not be allowed - I mean short vs. long).

- Procedures for starting new games, planning, proposals, bios, approval (I am not taking a position on these issues yet - just identifying issues).

- Player commitment and recruitment.

- Inns, their format and roles in the scheme of things. Also Innkeepers.

- Responsibilities and roles of game "owners".

- Number and organization of forums.

- Rules generally.

OK, here comes the oliphant. Mods. Their roles, responsibilities. Who will take responsibility and keep up with it? Piosenniel has been doing this for a very long time. It was never envisioned as a lifetime appointment. While she will, I think, continue to help it is not fair to have her continue alone if activity is going to increase.

Some people have posted thoughtful suggestions already. Assume nothing is graven in stone, though its not a true tabula rasa.

Have at it! You want things to improve? Let's do it.

[Mnemosyne]

Okay, on Formy's points.

1. Absolutely.

2. Ehhh... Not sure how I feel on the issue of "control." For one thing, whence this idea that short games need to be "controlled" and "plot-centric"? I understand why people would associate all of those, but how much of that association is due to the system that we already have in place? Why couldn't you have a "shared authority"-style micro-RPG that focuses on character interactions driving the story? And why couldn't you have people work together, for six months, on an Epic Quest plot run more like a D&D Campaign?

I would much rather have both fora have very similar rules and net standards, but only have the difference be in length--say, RPs that take up to a month belong in Forum X and RPs that take longer belong to Forum Y. I think that this would help lessen the perception that one forum is for the newbies and the other is for the more experienced players, particularly if writers frequent both fora.



Okay, those are my big structural suggestions.

As far as rules, and this is going off what Mithadan's Big Questions are:

1). Loosen up on rules that inhibit forum activity
2). Create or tighten up on rules that will discourage forum-killing behavior.

Specifically, what would this entail? Some ideas, and please thrash them thoroughly:

• Pare down on the rules to get a game started, anywhere. The mod can still consult and approve, and some of the beginning forms like "You will know when the game is over when" can be really helpful, but that should be it. Ideally I'd like to see the mod take on more of an advisory role in this phase, like, "Well, you can try to save all of Arda in six weeks, but maybe this should be a longer game?"
• Pare down on the rules for players to join either forum. Keep the inns as on-going, open-ended RPs, but don't require people to participate in them. Maybe tighten the character sheets up.
• When games end up dying--say, someone posts a seed and no one else bites for a month--keep them from stagnating the forum. This doesn't necessarily mean moving them to Elvenhome, although of course you can always move them back. A nursery would work equally well.

About mods, now that Mithadan has let us know what he's been thinking.

I like the idea of changing up the mod system, even if the roles don't change. More than anything else (as with changing the forum names, though I really don't want to lose the Meadhall) it would signify a psychological change, and I think that that's most of what we're trying to accomplish here.

I think a lot of what we're trying to change involves our own attitudes as players and possibly as game owners. The main thing is trying to get rules that reflect that.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

2. Ehhh... Not sure how I feel on the issue of "control." For one thing, whence this idea that short games need to be "controlled" and "plot-centric"? I understand why people would associate all of those, but how much of that association is due to the system that we already have in place? Why couldn't you have a "shared authority"-style micro-RPG that focuses on character interactions driving the story? And why couldn't you have people work together, for six months, on an Epic Quest plot run more like a D&D Campaign?

Well, I guess I'm simplifying things in my own mind for the sake of convenience. A short game would not, of necessity, be plot-centric. And, since my divisions are between plot-centric and character-centric, and since I'm making this distinction not based on the motivations of the writers but the motivations of the game owners, it would make logical sense to have short, shared authority games ("micro RPGs") in what I've called the Rivendell forum, while you might have some very long plot-driven games in the "Doriath" forum.

I guess, without having seen Bêth's post, I was unconsciously thinking along the lines of a "gamer" forum and a "writer" forum, with the secondary characteristics of "more structured" forum vs. "less structured" forum. One could also look at it as "owner responsible" forum vs. "player responsible" forum. Granted, the lines could easily blur in these respects, and you might end up with a "more structured, game-inclined, player responsible" game... which I would put in the "less structured/writer inclined/player responsible." The biggest distinction for me, between forums, would be owner/creator/progenitor responsibility in the game: length, structure, character/plot are sort of secondary.

It's a bit of a cluster concept, and I'm not sure I've explained it as well as I might...

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

*Pare down on the rules to get a game started, anywhere. The mod can still consult and approve, and some of the beginning forms like "You will know when the game is over when" can be really helpful, but that should be it. Ideally I'd like to see the mod take on more of an advisory role in this phase, like, "Well, you can try to save all of Arda in six weeks, but maybe this should be a longer game?"

Agreed that the Mod should be more advisory than authoritative, but insofar as they are charged with keeping order in the forum, they would still have a technical right of veto.

Also agreed that it should be easier to start games, at least in one forum.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

*Pare down on the rules for players to join either forum. Keep the inns as on-going, open-ended RPs, but don't require people to participate in them. Maybe tighten the character sheets up.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

*When games end up dying--say, someone posts a seed and no one else bites for a month--keep them from stagnating the forum. This doesn't necessarily mean moving them to Elvenhome, although of course you can always move them back. A nursery would work equally well.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

I think a lot of what we're trying to change involves our own attitudes as players and possibly as game owners. The main thing is trying to get rules that reflect that.

Agreed and agreed again!

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Mods. Their roles, responsibilities. Who will take responsibility and keep up with it? Piosenniel has been doing this for a very long time. It was never envisioned as a lifetime appointment. While she will, I think, continue to help it is not fair to have her continue alone if activity is going to increase.

I quite agree that while Pio has done an exemplary job that she ought to have company in a new system, but it's a very tricky business on a forum to go about suggesting moderators--akin to suggesting admins! Even in as comfortable a setting as the Downs, one doesn't want to step on toes by overlooking people, or start political camps--or (God forbid!) put forward one's own name.

If the Admins/Mods of the forum were to raise up a new mod (or more than one), I don't think anyone would disagree that it is timely. Speaking for myself, I think the chief things to look for in a new Mod are less their RPing credentials (though a familiarity with the system as is and as it will be is important) as the general mod credentials that would be looked for anywhere on the Downs: balanced judgment, ability to explain things, ability to keep a cool head, etc... and, of course, someone who's able to be on the forum frequently and regularly.

With regards to the Inns... I think I speak for all the active participants (although I'm not one of their number, playing a rather erstwhile Dwarf in Rohan) when I say it would make sense to important both the Shire and Rohan inns to the new forums... though the Seventh Star might be a different case (and one for the Gondorian veterans to weigh in on).

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Length of games (in my view never ending stories will still not be allowed - I mean short vs. long).

When you say 'never ending stories will still not be allowed'...I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean open-ended stories/threads/games will not be allowed (which the inns would fall under), or do you mean games/stories *must* end at some point? Or do you mean, games/stories will be deleted/moved to Elvenhome if they do not end in time? Or only if they stagnate?

I just don't see it being successful to enforce strict timeline rules. If a game/thread/story is not posted on for some time, remove it. Otherwise, let it be.

Do we really need multiple forums? How about just one discussion and one RP forum?

Originally Posted by Mithadan

How to get newcomers involved in games

One of the problems here that hasn't really been addressed yet is that the style of 'plan a closed game, run a closed game -- when I say closed I mean it involves a set number of characters and the plot is planned out as such that it is not easy for someone else to join in. Not that the players might not be able to make room, but the newcomer might have a lot to trudge through and figure out in order to take part.

We already have a good start toward getting new players involved in that list of player contacts, so we can make more use of that. And there's the possibility of 'mentors' who help newcomers get into a RP. But in general, more open games/open world RPing allows for newcomers to more easily jump in.

Pace of games and length of games -- in my opinion, leave up to those involved.

Procedures for starting new games, planning, proposals, bios, approval -- starting a discussion thread (anyone can); planning a thread with other players in the discussion thread; interested players post bios to join.

Inns, their format and roles in the scheme of things. Also Innkeepers -- Inns can be open for short RP interactions, and if people feel the need to get their feet wet somewhere. I think inns need to return to being more open ended like the Green Dragon. I am not sure bios should be required. No plot you have to know about in order to really be involved. Let people be able to jump in as they feel like it. Innkeepers...well, I'm not sure how necessary they are. It's a tough job, to be expected to keep up with the inn. And I'm not sure that's necessary for people to RP. Maybe have someone overseeing the inn, but mods could do that. Keep people in line, but let players just interact. Let the In-Character Innkeeper be an NPC.

Responsibilities and roles of game "owners" -- They become nothing more than the person who started the thread/game. We could leave it up to the initiator of the thread/game how much they want to control the thread and its plot. They decide if they want to reject players or only open their game to certain players.

Rules generally -- obviously there are general rules such as etiquette (no 'god-moding'...no controlling other people's characters!! unless given permission OR perhaps if the person is gone for a long time)
--encourage people to write their posts in a word processor to help with spelling and grammar mistakes, encourage a decent post length (we could keep the 2 paragraphs, or go with a word count of 100-150 words or something...encouraged but not necessarily *required* of every post).
--Canonicity...well, make it clear that we want people to stay generally realistic to the setting of Middle-earth. If people want to require that their players not only stay generally realistic but try to write 'for Tolkien' or however it was described, and adhere to strict guidelines not only of plot items, characters, but also of terms and language...well, that's up to them. They start a game/story/thread with those rules attached.

I'm typing from behind a fog of a cold so this is mangled...

Edit: Crossed with Mithalwen and I agree completely. Leave a lot up to the individual who initiates a game/story/whatever you want to call it!

Also on the mod note...that was why I brought up pio, because here we are discussing what to do about the RP forums and she's the only mod ATM who would have to enforce all these things people are coming up with (or adapt to them, etc), so I think her opinion means A LOT and I feel bad for sitting here declaring how things should be and then expecting the mod(s) and admins (Mithadan) to do all the work involved with these changes. So I guess what I mean is that I'm not expecting that.

[Mithalwen]

I don't think we need to get to hung up on many game rules on a forum wide level. I do think the person running it (if there is one) should have a degree of control since they are the one putting in the hard yakka. I think in a way this is more of an issue since gaming is so sparse, it has to be one size fits all. To take something positive from the werewolf games you know the style of game on offer before you sign up and if the current one doesn't suit you there will be another that might shortly. So I know I will never get my head around Duelling wizards but can sometimes be tempted by another concept or a short and sweet classic game.

[Mithalwen]

I don't think we need to get to hung up on many game rules on a forum wide level. I do think the person running it (if there is one) should have a degree of control since they are the one putting in the hard yakka. I think in a way this is more of an issue since gaming is so sparse, it has to be one size fits all. To take something positive from the werewolf games you know the style of game on offer before you sign up and if the current one doesn't suit you there will be another that might shortly. So I know I will never get my head around Duelling wizards but can sometimes be tempted by another concept or a short and sweet classic game.

If a set of expectations have been set up at the beginning of a game then any fundamental changes must be by negotiation and consensus not by fait accompli and the "Its my ball and I'm going home now" type of argument. If you don't want to collaborate then go write fanfic.

That said if their is an individual taking the burden of organisation then the WW Doctrine of the divine right of moderators should apply to them! All this talk of democracy I find rather seditious and dangerous. Before we know it the RPG forum will be an anarcho-syndicalist commune and we will be taking turns to act as a sort of executive officer each week whose decisions have to be ratified at bi-weekly meetings.

Basically there may be games that are like a dinner party - one or two people are organising, providing choosing the menu, setting the table, picking thr playlist etc and games that are like a potluck picnic. And possibly degrees in between.

As for Gondor. I don't have a problem with it but it hasn't really impinged on my life? death? - time on the downs and that is nearly seven years now.

[Bêthberry]

Great post, Formy. I can't rep it because I've repped you too recently, but it deserves one.

Because today is turning out to be very busy, I'll comment only on one point:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I think that in a restructured Gaming Forum we would still want someone to approve new games, . . . .

Doriath

. . . .

a. Games in Doriath may be started by any BDer who wants to start a game (no prior experience required), though they will have to run the game by the Mods for approval.

. . . .

4. Rivendell:

b. Anyone on the Downs could propose a game in this forum, subject to Mod approval. The Mod(s) would be within their rights to refuse newcomers and/or inexperienced players.

Currently, gamers in Gondor can start their own games without prior approval of any Mod, even the Gondor mod. It is only in Rohan and The Shire where games must be approved. So this proposal, instead of creating more ownership and responsibility for gamers, would in fact increase the control of Mods and place an absolute restriction on posting rights which no other forum here has.

Frankly, I think there's a place for Downers who have played in many games, have successfully run games, and have participated on the Forum demonstrating respect for the policies, not to have to seek approval if they want to start a game. We don't have to seek approval to start a thread in Books or N&N or Mirth. Are WW games "approved" by the WW Mod?

If there's a problem with a thread, a Mod can always close it, temporarily or permanently. That's what's done in Books, etc. Why can't that apply to games?

When people look at a member's profile, they can ask to see recent threads and recents posts. I tried to find an early game I started, Picnic at the Bonfire Glade, but it's not down under my profile as a thread I started, because the RPG Moderator, Mithadan at the time, "opened" it. That happens for every game in The Shire; none of them are "recognised" as being the thread of the people who actually write them. (That wasn't the case in Rohan, where gamers could start their own threads once the game was approved.) So if you like someone's game and want to read other games the Downer has started, it becomes an onerous task to try to track them down.

Does this state of affairs really need to continue? (I grant it was a solution to a problem back in the day.)

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Currently, gamers in Gondor can start their own games without prior approval of any Mod, even the Gondor mod. It is only in Rohan and The Shire where games must be approved. So this proposal, instead of creating more ownership and responsibility for gamers, would in fact increase the control of Mods and place an absolute restriction on posting rights which no other forum here has.

However, effectively, this is the situation that's already in place, since Gondor's been a mathom-house for years. You're right about the "posting rights" restriction, though--although I should add that the private Translations from the Elvish forum, while it was active, was much more restricted.

Frankly, I think there's a place for Downers who have played in many games, have successfully run games, and have participated on the Forum demonstrating respect for the policies, not to have to seek approval if they want to start a game. We don't have to seek approval to start a thread in Books or N&N or Mirth. Are WW games "approved" by the WW Mod?

The way I see it, there are two ways we can go about this, if we must have rules: regulating games through control of players (who's allowed to play at what level), and regulating games through control of games. And no, WW games aren't approved, but there's a queue mechanism in place that's existed as long as the game has, and when someone unreliable started up a game but then didn't do anything with it (IIRC) the group had to step in and make lots of rules.

I don't think that modship needs to take the appearance that it has in its most recent incarnation, but I still think it's good for there to be a point of access before games start, even if it's just, "Hey, I'm thinking of running this game, sound good?"

If there's a problem with a thread, a Mod can always close it, temporarily or permanently. That's what's done in Books, etc. Why can't that apply to games?

When people look at a member's profile, they can ask to see recent threads and recents posts. I tried to find an early game I started, Picnic at the Bonfire Glade, but it's not down under my profile as a thread I started, because the RPG Moderator, Mithadan at the time, "opened" it. That happens for every game in The Shire; none of them are "recognised" as being the thread of the people who actually write them. (That wasn't the case in Rohan, where gamers could start their own threads once the game was approved.) So if you like someone's game and want to read other games the Downer has started, it becomes an onerous task to try to track them down.

Does this state of affairs really need to continue? (I grant it was a solution to a problem back in the day.)

You've got a point here with the mod just closing threads. I'd still rather there be some sort of advisory capacity, though, and I don't know why.

But definitely, I don't think the mod needs to start game threads anymore.



I should add that before I joined here, I lurked, and I did use some of the finished games as fan fiction reading. I think that's why I'm more concerned with making sure that RPs are structured in the sense of, yes, they have a story to tell, and that story has a concrete beginning and ending. The Inns are fine for less concrete stuff, but really, Durelin, is it okay to have long-term stories that are more or less free-form, that players can hop into and out of? It's just a concept that's alien to me, probably because I got acquainted with RPs as a reader, and I write fan fiction, and I'm a big continuity geek. That's why I'm so much more interested in lots of short-term, intense games that can have some character overlap, because they allow for new people to get involved more easily without necessarily sacrificing the clarity of what it is we're doing.

I have to run, but I guess the question is if my reservations about an open world system are just me. And even if it isn't just me, is this something about RP culture that we can and should change?

[piosenniel]

Can someone please clarify a word for me?

How do you mean "mod" when you use that term? Are you referring to my job right now as the overall RPG forum moderator -- or do you mostly mean "mod" as it seems to be used in WW as the game initiator/facilitator.

Thanks!

~*~ Pio

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Currently, gamers in Gondor can start their own games without prior approval of any Mod, even the Gondor mod. It is only in Rohan and The Shire where games must be approved. So this proposal, instead of creating more ownership and responsibility for gamers, would in fact increase the control of Mods and place an absolute restriction on posting rights which no other forum here has.

You make a fair point--and I'd not personally have a problem turning my so-called "Rivendell" forum into one where games can be opened without mod approval. However, it's worth noting that I said anyone could start a game in my hypothetical "Rivendell" forum (and the same state of affairs would exist in its "Doriath" counterpart). This is different from the Gondor we currently have, because only those promoted to Gondor can start games there--so there's absolute freedom, under the current model, for a handful of players in Gondor (and it's quite a small hand), while the proposed model would have quite a bit of freedom.

I should probably clarify that when I say "subject to Mod approval" I really just mean running it by the Mod as a formality. One would have to have a rather inappropriate topic indeed to find it vetoed. In this schema, the Mod approval would not extent to the Mod starting all the threads, as is currently the case--merely saying "sure, no problem" by PM to the game creator. Since the Mod(s) has powers to delete and move threads, this need not even be by PM, as the Mod could remove offending threads with the click of a button. The advantage to PMing the Mod first is that you know this won't happen (and thus suffer no embarassment), but it's safe to say that pretty much any active RPer on the Downs could probably start a "safe" thread under this system and not have to worry about that.

Of course, I might simply be projecting too much of my own mental picture of said Mod onto this theoretical Mod, and that a real human being in said position might be in a trickier position than I imagine (though... having said that, I really don't think so... but I'm cocky that way).

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Frankly, I think there's a place for Downers who have played in many games, have successfully run games, and have participated on the Forum demonstrating respect for the policies, not to have to seek approval if they want to start a game. We don't have to seek approval to start a thread in Books or N&N or Mirth. Are WW games "approved" by the WW Mod?

If there's a problem with a thread, a Mod can always close it, temporarily or permanently. That's what's done in Books, etc. Why can't that apply to games?

So... either I missed this second half in my first read, or it got converted directly into my thoughts, because I feel like we have much the same position on the amount of action the Mods would be taking... just perhaps a slight difference of opinion on how rules about it would be articulated.