A Measure of Success

[Mnemosyne]

Okay, on Formy's points.

1. Absolutely.

2. Ehhh... Not sure how I feel on the issue of "control." For one thing, whence this idea that short games need to be "controlled" and "plot-centric"? I understand why people would associate all of those, but how much of that association is due to the system that we already have in place? Why couldn't you have a "shared authority"-style micro-RPG that focuses on character interactions driving the story? And why couldn't you have people work together, for six months, on an Epic Quest plot run more like a D&D Campaign?

I would much rather have both fora have very similar rules and net standards, but only have the difference be in length--say, RPs that take up to a month belong in Forum X and RPs that take longer belong to Forum Y. I think that this would help lessen the perception that one forum is for the newbies and the other is for the more experienced players, particularly if writers frequent both fora.



Okay, those are my big structural suggestions.

As far as rules, and this is going off what Mithadan's Big Questions are:

1). Loosen up on rules that inhibit forum activity
2). Create or tighten up on rules that will discourage forum-killing behavior.

Specifically, what would this entail? Some ideas, and please thrash them thoroughly:

• Pare down on the rules to get a game started, anywhere. The mod can still consult and approve, and some of the beginning forms like "You will know when the game is over when" can be really helpful, but that should be it. Ideally I'd like to see the mod take on more of an advisory role in this phase, like, "Well, you can try to save all of Arda in six weeks, but maybe this should be a longer game?"
• Pare down on the rules for players to join either forum. Keep the inns as on-going, open-ended RPs, but don't require people to participate in them. Maybe tighten the character sheets up.
• When games end up dying--say, someone posts a seed and no one else bites for a month--keep them from stagnating the forum. This doesn't necessarily mean moving them to Elvenhome, although of course you can always move them back. A nursery would work equally well.

About mods, now that Mithadan has let us know what he's been thinking.

I like the idea of changing up the mod system, even if the roles don't change. More than anything else (as with changing the forum names, though I really don't want to lose the Meadhall) it would signify a psychological change, and I think that that's most of what we're trying to accomplish here.

I think a lot of what we're trying to change involves our own attitudes as players and possibly as game owners. The main thing is trying to get rules that reflect that.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

2. Ehhh... Not sure how I feel on the issue of "control." For one thing, whence this idea that short games need to be "controlled" and "plot-centric"? I understand why people would associate all of those, but how much of that association is due to the system that we already have in place? Why couldn't you have a "shared authority"-style micro-RPG that focuses on character interactions driving the story? And why couldn't you have people work together, for six months, on an Epic Quest plot run more like a D&D Campaign?

Well, I guess I'm simplifying things in my own mind for the sake of convenience. A short game would not, of necessity, be plot-centric. And, since my divisions are between plot-centric and character-centric, and since I'm making this distinction not based on the motivations of the writers but the motivations of the game owners, it would make logical sense to have short, shared authority games ("micro RPGs") in what I've called the Rivendell forum, while you might have some very long plot-driven games in the "Doriath" forum.

I guess, without having seen Bêth's post, I was unconsciously thinking along the lines of a "gamer" forum and a "writer" forum, with the secondary characteristics of "more structured" forum vs. "less structured" forum. One could also look at it as "owner responsible" forum vs. "player responsible" forum. Granted, the lines could easily blur in these respects, and you might end up with a "more structured, game-inclined, player responsible" game... which I would put in the "less structured/writer inclined/player responsible." The biggest distinction for me, between forums, would be owner/creator/progenitor responsibility in the game: length, structure, character/plot are sort of secondary.

It's a bit of a cluster concept, and I'm not sure I've explained it as well as I might...

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

*Pare down on the rules to get a game started, anywhere. The mod can still consult and approve, and some of the beginning forms like "You will know when the game is over when" can be really helpful, but that should be it. Ideally I'd like to see the mod take on more of an advisory role in this phase, like, "Well, you can try to save all of Arda in six weeks, but maybe this should be a longer game?"

Agreed that the Mod should be more advisory than authoritative, but insofar as they are charged with keeping order in the forum, they would still have a technical right of veto.

Also agreed that it should be easier to start games, at least in one forum.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

*Pare down on the rules for players to join either forum. Keep the inns as on-going, open-ended RPs, but don't require people to participate in them. Maybe tighten the character sheets up.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

*When games end up dying--say, someone posts a seed and no one else bites for a month--keep them from stagnating the forum. This doesn't necessarily mean moving them to Elvenhome, although of course you can always move them back. A nursery would work equally well.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

I think a lot of what we're trying to change involves our own attitudes as players and possibly as game owners. The main thing is trying to get rules that reflect that.

Agreed and agreed again!

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Mods. Their roles, responsibilities. Who will take responsibility and keep up with it? Piosenniel has been doing this for a very long time. It was never envisioned as a lifetime appointment. While she will, I think, continue to help it is not fair to have her continue alone if activity is going to increase.

I quite agree that while Pio has done an exemplary job that she ought to have company in a new system, but it's a very tricky business on a forum to go about suggesting moderators--akin to suggesting admins! Even in as comfortable a setting as the Downs, one doesn't want to step on toes by overlooking people, or start political camps--or (God forbid!) put forward one's own name.

If the Admins/Mods of the forum were to raise up a new mod (or more than one), I don't think anyone would disagree that it is timely. Speaking for myself, I think the chief things to look for in a new Mod are less their RPing credentials (though a familiarity with the system as is and as it will be is important) as the general mod credentials that would be looked for anywhere on the Downs: balanced judgment, ability to explain things, ability to keep a cool head, etc... and, of course, someone who's able to be on the forum frequently and regularly.

With regards to the Inns... I think I speak for all the active participants (although I'm not one of their number, playing a rather erstwhile Dwarf in Rohan) when I say it would make sense to important both the Shire and Rohan inns to the new forums... though the Seventh Star might be a different case (and one for the Gondorian veterans to weigh in on).

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Length of games (in my view never ending stories will still not be allowed - I mean short vs. long).

When you say 'never ending stories will still not be allowed'...I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean open-ended stories/threads/games will not be allowed (which the inns would fall under), or do you mean games/stories *must* end at some point? Or do you mean, games/stories will be deleted/moved to Elvenhome if they do not end in time? Or only if they stagnate?

I just don't see it being successful to enforce strict timeline rules. If a game/thread/story is not posted on for some time, remove it. Otherwise, let it be.

Do we really need multiple forums? How about just one discussion and one RP forum?

Originally Posted by Mithadan

How to get newcomers involved in games

One of the problems here that hasn't really been addressed yet is that the style of 'plan a closed game, run a closed game -- when I say closed I mean it involves a set number of characters and the plot is planned out as such that it is not easy for someone else to join in. Not that the players might not be able to make room, but the newcomer might have a lot to trudge through and figure out in order to take part.

We already have a good start toward getting new players involved in that list of player contacts, so we can make more use of that. And there's the possibility of 'mentors' who help newcomers get into a RP. But in general, more open games/open world RPing allows for newcomers to more easily jump in.

Pace of games and length of games -- in my opinion, leave up to those involved.

Procedures for starting new games, planning, proposals, bios, approval -- starting a discussion thread (anyone can); planning a thread with other players in the discussion thread; interested players post bios to join.

Inns, their format and roles in the scheme of things. Also Innkeepers -- Inns can be open for short RP interactions, and if people feel the need to get their feet wet somewhere. I think inns need to return to being more open ended like the Green Dragon. I am not sure bios should be required. No plot you have to know about in order to really be involved. Let people be able to jump in as they feel like it. Innkeepers...well, I'm not sure how necessary they are. It's a tough job, to be expected to keep up with the inn. And I'm not sure that's necessary for people to RP. Maybe have someone overseeing the inn, but mods could do that. Keep people in line, but let players just interact. Let the In-Character Innkeeper be an NPC.

Responsibilities and roles of game "owners" -- They become nothing more than the person who started the thread/game. We could leave it up to the initiator of the thread/game how much they want to control the thread and its plot. They decide if they want to reject players or only open their game to certain players.

Rules generally -- obviously there are general rules such as etiquette (no 'god-moding'...no controlling other people's characters!! unless given permission OR perhaps if the person is gone for a long time)
--encourage people to write their posts in a word processor to help with spelling and grammar mistakes, encourage a decent post length (we could keep the 2 paragraphs, or go with a word count of 100-150 words or something...encouraged but not necessarily *required* of every post).
--Canonicity...well, make it clear that we want people to stay generally realistic to the setting of Middle-earth. If people want to require that their players not only stay generally realistic but try to write 'for Tolkien' or however it was described, and adhere to strict guidelines not only of plot items, characters, but also of terms and language...well, that's up to them. They start a game/story/thread with those rules attached.

I'm typing from behind a fog of a cold so this is mangled...

Edit: Crossed with Mithalwen and I agree completely. Leave a lot up to the individual who initiates a game/story/whatever you want to call it!

Also on the mod note...that was why I brought up pio, because here we are discussing what to do about the RP forums and she's the only mod ATM who would have to enforce all these things people are coming up with (or adapt to them, etc), so I think her opinion means A LOT and I feel bad for sitting here declaring how things should be and then expecting the mod(s) and admins (Mithadan) to do all the work involved with these changes. So I guess what I mean is that I'm not expecting that.

[Mithalwen]

I don't think we need to get to hung up on many game rules on a forum wide level. I do think the person running it (if there is one) should have a degree of control since they are the one putting in the hard yakka. I think in a way this is more of an issue since gaming is so sparse, it has to be one size fits all. To take something positive from the werewolf games you know the style of game on offer before you sign up and if the current one doesn't suit you there will be another that might shortly. So I know I will never get my head around Duelling wizards but can sometimes be tempted by another concept or a short and sweet classic game.

[Mithalwen]

I don't think we need to get to hung up on many game rules on a forum wide level. I do think the person running it (if there is one) should have a degree of control since they are the one putting in the hard yakka. I think in a way this is more of an issue since gaming is so sparse, it has to be one size fits all. To take something positive from the werewolf games you know the style of game on offer before you sign up and if the current one doesn't suit you there will be another that might shortly. So I know I will never get my head around Duelling wizards but can sometimes be tempted by another concept or a short and sweet classic game.

If a set of expectations have been set up at the beginning of a game then any fundamental changes must be by negotiation and consensus not by fait accompli and the "Its my ball and I'm going home now" type of argument. If you don't want to collaborate then go write fanfic.

That said if their is an individual taking the burden of organisation then the WW Doctrine of the divine right of moderators should apply to them! All this talk of democracy I find rather seditious and dangerous. Before we know it the RPG forum will be an anarcho-syndicalist commune and we will be taking turns to act as a sort of executive officer each week whose decisions have to be ratified at bi-weekly meetings.

Basically there may be games that are like a dinner party - one or two people are organising, providing choosing the menu, setting the table, picking thr playlist etc and games that are like a potluck picnic. And possibly degrees in between.

As for Gondor. I don't have a problem with it but it hasn't really impinged on my life? death? - time on the downs and that is nearly seven years now.