Why Does Good Suck So Much?

[Nikkolas]

I don't remember them sacrificing people before Sauron suggested it. Then again I could be mistaken.

Anyway, it's entirely possible (and probable) that Numenor would have gotten itself sunk eventually. But what-ifs are not important. It remains that Sauron did poison the people against the Valar. It is Sauron who pushed them to madness and death and evil.

He is only there because the Valar allowed him to be. The Valar's failing is a cause of the death of Numenor is all I'm saying.

I am enjoying this discussion though.

[Galadriel55]

I'm glad that your head is still intact from my babbling.

What I was talking about is not "official" sacrifices to someone specific (ie Morgoth), but rather murder that is ordered by the king that make Morgoth's dream (chaos etc) come true.

The Valar rarely interfere with the outside world. Not because they don't care. Because they leave a choice to the Eruhini. They sent the istari - you might think "big deal, 5 old wizards!" but it's more than that. It's a way to assist ME without completely controlling it.

Sauron came to Numenor because Pharazon took him there.

At the end of the 1st age, Sauron was left alive because of pity, as I said before. Later on, the Valar did not interfere in the world's affairs for a long time.


I'm trying to say something more complicated than my brains can hold. I'm confusing myself, and probably going in circles with my arguments. Gonna go hang my brain on a clothsline for a while to air out.

[Nikkolas]

I understand your points. ^^

I suppose you could look at them having "traitors" executing as the first step to sacrifices.

As for the rest, the Valar's actions are a bit erratic. Sometimes they don't want to interfere, and sometimes they do. If they had a single uniform policy of non-interference, I could respect that. But think of it from the perspective of a Numenorian.

"You helped the Elves and Men and everyone else! Why won't you help us?!"

i could not even begin to blame them for being bitter. The inaction of the Valar, and the completely monstrous act of sinking Numenor, make the controllers of the fates of Arda look quite malevolent or at least not benevolent.

As for Sauron, he at least had noble intentions. His design was to rule the world because only through dictatorship could order and peace be achieved. It's understandable that he would think this way given the chaos he's seen. Unfortunately for him he overestimated his own ability to right all the wrongs of the world.

[Galadriel55]

NOTE: the Valar didn't sink Numenor. Eru did.

The Valar (and Eru) didn't act until Pharazon completely decided that he wants to wage war against Valinor. There were warnings for him while he still was in Numenor. He didn't heed. He was given a last chance, and he almost took it - just before he stepped onto Aman - but pride was stronger. It's his pride that killed him.

I have to agree that the Valar are fairly inconsistent, with other issues as well. For example, they give Tuor immortality when they can't give it to Beren.

I guess that they think they are too uninvolved, so they stick their noses in, decide that they are messing around too much, go back into seclusion...

[Nikkolas]

Well I've quite enjoyed our little discussion. But I have a throbbing headache and can't really stare at my computer screen. I'll respond tomorrow I guess.

Been nice chatting with you.

[tumhalad2]

Nikkolas - a fascinating and thought provoking response to The Silmarillion - perhaps my favourite of Tolkien's works.

I think there is a great deal of truth in what you say about the Valar. The question is, is there the interprative space within the text itself to allow for a reading of them that emphasises their negative qualities, as opposed to their positive ones. Given that the metafictional conceit of The Silmarillion is that it was written by Elves (or Numenoreans through Elvish traditions) we must be cautious when answering this question: naturally the Elves (or the High Elves, at any rate) are predisposed to think highly of the Valar. Nonetheless, I think it is certainly reasonable to assign some degree of blame to the Valar, say, for allowing Sauron to continue inhabiting Middle-earth, or to Melian for abandoning Doriath.

One aspect of The Silmarillion that has really grown on me is the sheer selfishness of the motivations of the characters who oppose Morgoth. Unlike Gandalf, characters like Feanor or even Hurin don't oppose him because he is "evil": they oppose him because he is either a threat to their status (Morwen and Hurin are very concerned for Turin partly because he is the "heir" destined to inheret wide lands) or because he commited a crime against property (stole the Silmarilli). Unlike the War of the Ring in the Third Age, the Wars of Beleriand, pitting the Noldor and the Sindar against Morgoth, are offensive in their design; their goal is not merely to overthrow Morgoth because he is an existential threat, like Sauron.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

And why was it unsuccessful? Why did the Valar and Eru Himself slaughter helpless women and children?

Amandil's voyage was in vain because the Valar had already accepted such an embassy once before. Every time Men and Elves got in a bind, should they have had the fallback of running to the West for protection? No. That, ultimately, was not the purpose of the Valar.
It can be argued that the "gifts" given to the Edain by the Valar, their proximity to the Undying Lands and their extended lifespan, contributed to the fall of Númenor. However, you can't reasonably accuse the Valar and the One of murder because of it. What Ilúvatar did in destroying the island had to be done, as Ar-Pharazôn and his army could well have wrought death and ruin in Valinor.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

This is not simply a case of "And Man Grew Proud." It's a case of "And Man...were Men and then were used by a being with powers and abilities far beyond their own. A being who is only at large because the gods were inept."

The Númenóreans made choices, some to follow the King's Men (and ultimately, Sauron), and some to hold fast to reverence for the Elves, the Valar, and Ilúvatar. That Sauron was not strong enough to sway all the people of Númenor is obvious. The King's Men followed him of their own free will. If the Faithful were capable of resisting, so were the others.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

Speaking of which, I need to get to The Children of Hurin. it goes into greater detail of his life and character, right?

CoH is basically a melding of the Silmarillion generalisation of Túrin's tale and the much more detailed Narn in UT.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

As for Melkor, he was born of Eru's mind. Eru Himself made Melkor to be willfull, fearful and proud. There's also the theological paradox present of whether free will can even exist if we are created by an omnipotent and omniscient being. Because even as we type these posts, this was foretold and destined to happen at the beginning of existence. Therefore free will cannot really exist.

But that really tangles up Tolkien's ideas with Christianity and that is a really heated debate I don't want to get into.

If you haven't already done so, check out this thread, which delves into that subject.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

As for Sauron, he at least had noble intentions. His design was to rule the world because only through dictatorship could order and peace be achieved. It's understandable that he would think this way given the chaos he's seen. Unfortunately for him he overestimated his own ability to right all the wrongs of the world.

You're joking, right? That's why he sacrificed innocent people in Númenor, then? And why he made the Rings of Power? With them Sauron enslaved Nine Men, basically overwriting their innate humanity, turning them into undead slaves who had absolutely no will of their own. And let's not forget his impaling Celebrimbor's body on a pole and using it for a banner. If that isn't a sign of noble intentions, what is?

Originally Posted by tumhalad2

Unlike the War of the Ring in the Third Age, the Wars of Beleriand, pitting the Noldor and the Sindar against Morgoth, are offensive in their design; their goal is not merely to overthrow Morgoth because he is an existential threat, like Sauron.

And for that reason the Valar turned their backs on the Noldor: their war wasn't just.