WW LXXXIX: The Terror of Tol Fuin

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

General list:

Bom Tombadillo - might be trying to make an easy lynch out of sally, but then again, he is a newbie, who knows how his thought processes go. Therefore, he will get a newbie pass from me toDay.
Nogrod - I don't have clear idea about him yet, hope to see more posts from him.
Shasta - has not contributed much anything to base judgement upon.
Kitanna - raising suspicions with, in my opinion, grounds which are not really worth of suspicion, but then again, maybe she just has bad standards for suspecting people and not meaning evil intentionally.
G55 - reasonable this far, and in any case, also a newbie pass for her toDay.
Sally - I don't see her suspicious. I don't have much more info on her, though, but I certainly wouldn't suspect her based on what several others seem to.
Eomer - despite appearing, didn't say anything worth much. I think that's a problem of rather many people this far.
Nerwen - questionmark. Thoughtful as usual, but of course there might be some sinister thoughts behind that mask, so who knows.
Loslote - nothing to base any thoughts on, again one of those I would like to see more from.
Greenie - had posted a nice summary, but too long. For some reason, I get uneasy feeling from her, but hard to say.
Lommy - not appeared yet
Nilp - this far only schizophrenic stuff, so that's not worth much
Mithalwen - she had a few times been commenting on suspicions raised by confirming them (like "yes, I agree sally is odd" and "TomBom is strange - he does not know rules"-see below), which might be a typical Wolfy attitude (i.e. you are picking on suspicions which are lying around to simply blend with the crowd) and she had backed away from questioning Shasta, which might be being a bit of "Ms. Agreeable" - but of course, maybe it was also just related to the amount of sleep/coffee/time/whatever she had and nothing was intended by it. Half of her posts are "administratory" anyway and without much content (referring to what is the time, who is posting and such), so it's hard to tell.

All in all, I don't have any very strong suspect this far. I at most know people I know I don't want to vote (at least now), which is also good by itself. But I will read and think.

Random question:

Originally Posted by Mith

Interesting - I usually think not knowing the rules is suspicious - which mean Bom is looking interesting ... rule query, first post and this offer to more or less "mercy lynch" Sally.

Why do you think not knowing the rules is suspicious? I would think the opposite - WWs especially really have to read the rules, so that they can operate properly. (Although, in my opinion, everybody should read the rules carefully to be able to operate properly in his or her own role - even ordos, so that they can judge well what's going on and what are the options... but for WWs and Gifteds it is necessary, because e.g. you cannot play a Ranger without knowing how this role works, and a Wolf should know that as well, so that they know how they should plan their Night-kills in regards to there being other roles which can hinder them and so on...)

[Thinlómien]

Hiya, sorry for the late appearance but I first overslept, then attended a planned meeting and lastly got ambushed by unexpected complications, however I'm now here and have read the thread. I have very little to say atm, I'm very confused and it's way too long since I last played for my brain to be properly on the ww mode. Maybe I will make a list to clarify my thoughts...

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Legate of Amon Lanc;657503]General list:

Why do you think not knowing the rules is suspicious? I would think the opposite - WWs especially really have to read the rules, so that they can operate properly. QUOTE]

Well for exactly that reason of course!!! So if you make a show of not knowing the rules I think it may be a wolf trying to created the impression of innocence "I don't know hte rules so I can't be anyone important". It proved ot be the case a few times back in the day so it was to me worth commenting on..it isn't a sophisticated strategy I admit.. but at that stage of the day there wasn't an awful lot to go on.

As for Shasta - the opening post was so odd I felt there had to be some history so I asked and was satisfied, for the time being. So far so werewolf.......

[Nogrod]

Okay. That Bom's post (#26) is an interesting case indeed.

First there is this joke about the first three posters being naturally the werewolves (including himself, with Nilp and Sally) - when did this folklore went astray? I think the original claim was that a werewolves will post within the first ones as they're happy to play and get involved (which made sense, at least back then), then it knid of turned into a ww being amidst the first three and / or that the first poster is a ww... Well this version of Bom's is new to me, getting ever farther from something that originally had an idea.

Be the history of the saying what it may, the point here is he starts with this joking mode (including himself as a wolf).

Then he makes the clause: if there are retrackies, he will vote for "deatwish!Sally, until such time as further evidence is presented."

Now this to me looks more like innocent talk (added with the beginning-joke) than crafty wolvery.

But then he goes on to slightly "improve" his case against Sally with his interesting take on logic which I find hard to interpret as to whether it is in a total joke mode or is he actually trying to persuade people with it?


All in all, I'm still reluctant to vote for Bom just for that, and because this is his first/second game(?).

If there is no reaally suspicious person to vote I'd rather go to those who try to be really neat and unprovoking, careful, easy, non-commitant, unnoticed, low, behind a mask, only bantering... whatever.

[Nogrod]

The way Kit posts is the reason I don't want her to get lynched. Actually I'm a bit jealous right now as she does what I tend to be doing normally. But I'm a bit out of energy right now and am not able to raise to her level of really going into it. I hope I will do better the next Days if alive.

But also I think there is an interesting discrepancy between the level of thought by the analyser and the analysed. I think Sally went on her own carefree manner making an early post she didn't think was nothing serious but just something to toy with while repeating her info about her situation in a jokeful manner. Then Kit makes this "serious-player move" (which I tend to do oftentimes myself - and which people should start doing on D2 the latest, everyone) analysing that post's indications into all their variable conclusions just over-analysing it into pieces Sally probably never had thought of herself (even if she was a baddie).

In a sloppy Day like this I think Kit is the last one to be lynched. We need more players like her, not less.

[satansaloser2005]

Eomer in a warg shell....

Says we have a "careful village" and that talk for the sake of talk is useless.
Mentions Galadriel's tendency to defend me.
Tells me I always look like a cobbler.
Talks about pigeons.
Describes the sudden jump on Stealth Yellowboots as "bewildering."
Sees the humor in Bom's "suspicious" post, and doesn't see why people are making such a big deal of it.
Calls Galadriel out on her defense of me and her suspicion of Bom and Kit.
Votes for Galadriel for the reasons listed above.
"Compassion gets you nowhere in Werewolf."


He seems fine to me, balanced and logical as well as picking up on the humor where people intend for it to be found. While I don't agree with him on Kit, I'm thinking that he's not a wolf, or if so, not a wolf with her. I can't possibly disagree with him on Galadriel because, well, what he says is so true. My hesitation is brought about by her newness and the likelihood that her "guilt" is just newbie mistakes, which is why I am hesitant to follow his vote.


I'll have to think on this for a bit, but I need to go soon, so I'll see what else I have to say before I leave.


EDIT: x'd since my last, bolding

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Well for exactly that reason of course!!! So if you make a show of not knowing the rules I think it may be a wolf trying to created the impression of innocence "I don't know hte rules so I can't be anyone important". It proved ot be the case a few times back in the day so it was to me worth commenting on..it isn't a sophisticated strategy I admit.. but at that stage of the day there wasn't an awful lot to go on.

Oh yes, I see. Well, I wouldn't say however that it was a "show" - it was related to some votes and it seemed like a rather random addendum. In my opinion, making a show of not knowing the rules would look different - more like "hey, so tell me please, how was it with the Ranger, actually?" Or whatever... But anyway, I see now where you were coming from.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

The more Sally speaks though, the more I wonder. She's just rambled for a lot of posts.

Well, I think that really goes for very many people around here, and so I don't see it applying to Sally in particular in any case. Although other things you say about sally might be more valid, possibly, but generally I am not really that much suspecting her.

Update on Nog - he seems more like his innocent self this far, I think (this sort of threatening-y, "I have some clear ideas of what is right and what is wrong and now I shall explain to you"-type of posting).

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

(this sort of threatening-y, "I have some clear ideas of what is right and what is wrong and now I shall explain to you"-type of posting).

Hey!

Maybe I'm on a "detached senior statesman mood" today?

But to be honest, no, I don't have any clear ideas on what's right or wrong, but I do see some patterns emerging that take place time and time again. Like that people will stuck into talking about the first one or two people the talk starts revolving around and in the end there's little other possibilities but to vote them as nothing else has been discussed.

I mean if there is something really suspicious that starts the discussion, then that is just fair, but most often that is not the case and an innocent gets lynched because of these game-dynamics.

Which is not to say I think or know that Sally and/or Bom are innocents. They just feel more like it than not at the moment.

[Mithalwen]

Show may be too strong a word but I was trying to make the distinction that querying the rules is not necessarily a genuine enquiry - especially when there are admin threads - and indeed pms for that sort of the thing. There is a difference between asking (faux-) naif questions about things that can be learned easily by reading the start of the thread and for example, in our current situation of wondering what significance the Ranger twist might have. It certainly could make a difference, btw, particularly in a relatively small village - and there is a good chance of it coming in to play since someone the Ranger prioritises to protect is quite likely to be a wolf priority.

So some things belong on Admin threads others on game threads. That was the point of them originally. Not a hard and fast rule - and I am not having a pop at Nogrod on that score - I have cited RL at times I know . Saying I am having a bad day is again different to announcing the game should be played to one players schedule. But maybe I am just a grouchy and irritable old woman.

[Mithalwen]

Way back when I first modded Kitanna was right about just about everything and ignored and lynched. The village lost and it was a heavy loss. A serious player verily.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Way back when I first modded Kitanna was right about just about everything and ignored and lynched. The village lost and it was a heavy loss. A serious player verily.

Yes, but if she's evil, then by your logic she's serious evil. I'm just sayin'.



x'd since the post I quoted, as I got distracted by a tiny feathered creature

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Way back when I first modded Kitanna was right about just about everything and ignored and lynched. The village lost and it was a heavy loss. A serious player verily.

I remember that oh so well. 'twas my first game and no one gave me this so-called "newbie pass". Rather I was mercilessly killed on Day 2...if I ever see Morm on the street I'll shake my fist at him and scream "it was all your fault". Because of this I never give newbies a free ride because I'm a cranky and bitter young woman. :P

But I digress. I feel like I missed a lot yesterday after I voted. Sooo I'm going to have to reread the thread and go from there. For now I maintain my Sally is guilty stance. I noticed some buzz around Galadriel. I'll be looking at her and those who brought her up. Let's see where this takes me.

[Thinlómien]

Bom Tombadillo - creating a lot of controversy. I don't know what to make of his fishy jump on Sally, but on the whole it feels more like a new player attracting suspicion in the oh-so-typical newbie manner...

Nogrod - seems to be making sense this far, but seems a little uptight and cautious - but I'm ready to attribute that to RL stuff for the time being.

Shasta - says little, ergo I can say little about him.

Kitanna - for once, I don't quite get where all the Kitanna-suspicion is coming from. I don't necessarily agree with everything she says, but she seems sensible enough. I wouldn't like to lynch her toDay - it would be a poor thanks for beasically keep the discussion going on toDay.

G55 - wouldn't believe it's her first game, she's so sharp. Can't say if she's good or evil though.

Sally - well, I can't see why she has been made such a fuss of toDay. I'm more inclined to think she's innocent than not (I seem to recall she only makes such a show of her innocence when she's innocent) but of course this is not foolproof reasoning.

Eomer - no idea yet. Seems annoyingly self-confident but that's just typical I guess.

Nerwen - can't recall anything she said, which is a little worrisome.

Loslote - see above, except that I recall her flirting with Nilp.

Greenie - seems more innocent than not, but that might be just because her comment about flip-flopping made me happy.

Nilp - I'm wondering whether I want to start the debate about the meaning of Nilp's lack of self-vote... I would be happy if he had just finally changed his playing style a little.

Mithalwen - can't say much yet either.

Legate - sensible enough, however this doesn't mean much.


Wow, that was quite a piece of no opinions. I clearly need to shrapen my brain.


edit: xed with everything
edit2: in fact didn't crosspost with anything that was on the previous page, sorry!

[Kitanna]

I was prepared to leave the Sally suspicions alone. Intentionally I was confused and suspicious that in her second post she said she'd have to withdraw on the 6th. It seemed too early and inappropriate for that. I outlined some of the ideas on had on the subject. I focused on Bom because he seemed eager to be rid of Sally, not because she was suspicious but because of what she had said. This of course made Sally look more innocent and cast Bom in a negative light.

The more Sally speaks though, the more I wonder. She's just rambled for a lot of posts.

Ah, but you see, dear Kit, if the wolves try to kill me in the Night, they won't be targeting one of the gifteds. So not only have I now made the announcement of when we'll need to win the game by very clear, I've created possible confusion among the wolf pack.

No it doesn't. I'd say this creates more confusion in the village. If you are innocent then they either A) attack you to lessen the innocent votes or B) Leave you be. Saying you have to withdraw doesn't create too much confusion for them. The village likewise has the option to A) Lynch you or B) Let you live. Unlike the wolves we can't be sure if you're what you say.

I see it as more you're trying to confuse us. You've revealed yourself as an ordo, people rarely believe that. The only way we can be sure is if you die or the seer dreams of you and clears you. A seer reveal now would be reckless to say the least...and back to my point. You want us to take your word by saying how important you are to the winning effort, but what have you done to help?

There are only eight hours left in the Day, people! Let's get cracking!

Yes..let's...

DL is in about seven hours, my good lad....y.

Well yes, but I also hate wasted Day Ones, especially when I'm on a short leash time-wise. People are talking, and formulating ideas about what I meant, and generally leaving evidence for us to use later. I'd say that's far from cobblerish, dear. It's called being proactive.

Sounds cobberlish to me. But cobberlish doesn't matter seeing as we have none in the game.

To clarify, my point about Kit looking fishy is completely legit. Her posts smell funny to me.

How is that legit? Most posts I've seen are fishy and that includes yours. That doesn't clarify anything.

Originally Posted by Nog

Before this calling-round began I was about to post that neither Sally or Bom look that suspicious to me but that especially those who are trying to "confirm them" as lynch candidates (not especially those who notice something first, but those supporting without a lot to add themselves) are the ones I'd rather vote for. I'll have to check that, as to who did what back there.

I am fully ready to risk my life because the more I look at Sally the more I think she's up to no good. She's calling for talk, for ideas, but isn't providing any, rather she's hiding behind random accusations and silly posts. Her second post is all too convenient for me to accept as innocent. Intentionally it meant very little to me, but then when I reread the thread I started to wonder. Nothing Sally has said makes me think she's any less suspicious. I realize being so foolish and bold will probably get me killed. It's a risk I'm willing to take. If Sally is innocent I'll eat my own hat.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

If Sally is innocent I'll eat my own hat.

As long as you don't eat mine. I'm quite fond of it.


The thing that bothers me about Kit is that she flip flops on me, first calling my post rather innocent and then (in her most recent post) saying that I'm likely guilty because of how I'm handling myself. You can't have it both ways, dear, and while I agree that Bom's reaction to my post could point to guilt, it could just as easily be a joke.

Perhaps it's just that I'm having a long day, but I think Kit's grasping at straws. Well, I suppose I shouldn't say grasping at straws, but she's putting a LOT of stock in what I've already said was a social experiment. (Granted, the statements I made in that post were true, but I made them in such a way that people would have little choice but to respond to them, thus allowing me to gauge their reactions and, as a result, their guilt.) Then again, it's Day One, and all the suspicion of Bom is based on equally unsound reasons, so whatever.


I have a duck talking to me. I should probably deal with that.


x'd since....since Nog's post about Bom, which I'll get to in a bit

[satansaloser2005]

Nog, just because someone posts regularly/in a way you fancy doesn't mean they're innocent. I understand your desire to keep good posters around, but I can think of many games where that logic (or the reverse, for that matter) cost the innocents a victory. Innocence or guilt is what matters, not how pretty your posts are.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Nog, just because someone posts regularly/in a way you fancy doesn't mean they're innocent. I understand your desire to keep good posters around, but I can think of many games where that logic (or the reverse, for that matter) cost the innocents a victory. Innocence or guilt is what matters, not how pretty your posts are.

That's not actually what I'm saying.

The wolves need to lie, right? The goodies can speak true, right?

Now find out a wolf and a baddie amongst the following personas:

1) a baddie who says nothing
2) a goodie who says nothing
3) a baddie who talks a lot and argues a lot - and needs to lie most of the time
4) a goodie that talks a lot and argues a lot - and can be true all the time (even if s/he can err)

It's clear getting the baddie of character 1) is just a random chance (and a poor one at that as people too seldom agree to lynch a submarine player - thus creating the place for the wolves to win in unsportsmanlike style.)

Also a goodie of type b) just make this game harder for us other gooidies (so they should be regarded as traitors I'd say if I'd be harsher, but as the agreeable person I am, I just call them sissies).

But a baddie of type 3) can be caught with logic, argumentation, you name it! And even if there are great risks in finding out a goodie of type 4) from a baddie of type 3) - that pocess is something we call playing werewolf. Anyone could cast random votes with their dices at home alone if that was fun...

So therefore whehter Kitanna is good or bad is a lesser thing toDay as there is no clear evidence she is bad - as she makes cases she can be scrutinised by them later - unlike those who just "hey, need to hunt some werewolf, plese you others post, bye".

Heh, I'm feeling nostalgic. I haven't made this rant in years (really Mith, you must believe me - I think I was this way all the time when we used to play a many games a long time ago - maybe it's you who are bringing this reaction from me after a long time? ). And I'm actually not too keen to continue pressing it. But just as answer to you Sally; the issue is more complicated...

Funny, I thought you would have played that many games you would have seen all that Sally?

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Lottie goes down for being so squishy. She seems to have very little to say (well I know this might sound hypocritical but she's been involved for much longer toDay than me!)

The only hunch I've got so far is an ickle little one about Galadriel, and I don't want to lynch a player on their first Day 1 ever. That just seems kind of harsh. I've been re-reading, looking for anything else that jumps out at me. It's been quiet, though. *grump*

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Loslote

The only hunch I've got so far is an ickle little one about Galadriel, and I don't want to lynch a player on their first Day 1 ever. That just seems kind of harsh. I've been re-reading, looking for anything else that jumps out at me. It's been quiet, though. *grump*

Compassion gets you nowhere in Werewolf.