“Thee” and “thou” in “The Lord of the Rings”

[Rumil]

Very interesting Esty,

I'd not clocked the significance in Aragorn/Eowyn exchanges.

As I remember it thee and thine etc are archaic, and therefore bring to mind legendary romances (Tristan and Isolde etc) but also archaic in that they bring to mind great leaders of old.

The major contrast here is between the hobbits' modern usage of you and yours and the 'heroic types' use of thee and thine. However the romantic use is a very telling sub-set of usage.

Also that the Fellowship are 'you and yours'-ers generally, perhaps tying in with (Denethor's?) comment that Pippin uses a strange idiom. Were the Fellowship (Gimli, Legolas, Aragorn, Boromir) using the modern forms as a more every-day form of speech?

Also backing up Selmo in that Oop North number of these archaic forms are still part of regonal dialect.

[Formendacil]

If memory serves, Tolkien comments on his use of Thee/Thou/Thy/Thine in one of his letters, but (also if memory serves, or IMS) he doesn't speak of Aragorn and Éowyn; rather, he speaks of Faramir and Éowyn. For those who know to look for it, Éowyn's "defrost" becomes evident in the 2nd person pronouns she uses in addressing Faramir.

Denethor has also been brought up (his use of "thee" & co. to Gandalf is a clear sign that he considers Gandalf his inferior), and (again, IMS) I believe that Tolkien also mentions, in this or some other letter, that, among other things, he was using the archaic familiar form with the Gondorians to help establish a linguistic difference between Gondor and the Shire. He mentions that a big part of the reason people called Pippin "ernil i pherrianath (sic?) is because Pippin's Eriadoric Westron used only the familiar. Via the translator conceit into modern English, this doesn't play quite as well, since the surviving pronoun is the formal "you," but we can still get a hint of different "sound" of the two Westrons.

(As an aside, it is frustrating to try and say things with any certainty when one's copy of The Letters is a 1000 leagues distant.)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Denethor has also been brought up (his use of "thee" & co. to Gandalf is a clear sign that he considers Gandalf his inferior), and (again, IMS) I believe that Tolkien also mentions, in this or some other letter, that, among other things, he was using the archaic familiar form with the Gondorians to help establish a linguistic difference between Gondor and the Shire. He mentions that a big part of the reason people called Pippin "ernil i pherrianath (sic?) is because Pippin's Eriadoric Westron used only the familiar. Via the translator conceit into modern English, this doesn't play quite as well, since the surviving pronoun is the formal "you," but we can still get a hint of different "sound" of the two Westrons.

That's actually from the ROTK Appendix F.

Tolkien notes there, that in comparison to Hobbits:

In Gondor and Rohan a more antique language was used, more formal and more terse.

So obviously Éowyn would have been familiar with the formal pronouns, probably more so since she was raised by Théoden, whose mother was from Lossarnach.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Formy, I was also looking for that reference in the Letters, and was finally pointed in the direction of Appendix F by Hammond and Scull. Inzil quotes the beginning of the pertinent passage, and Tolkien goes into more detail following that (Section II - On Translation). That's the really interesting bit for this discussion!

The Westron tongue made in the pronouns of the second person... a distinction... between 'familiar' and 'deferential' forms. It was, however, one of the peculiarities of Shire-usage that the deferential forms had gone out of colloquial use. ... This was one of the things referred to when people of Gondor spoke of the strangeness of Hobbit-speech. Peregrin Took, for instance, in his first few days in Minas Tirith used the familiar for people of all ranks, including the Lord Denethor himself. This may have amused the aged Steward, but it must have astonished his servants. No doubt this free use of the familiar forms helped to spread the popular rumour that Peregrin was a person of very high rank in his own country.

As to the usage of the different forms, Tolkien adds a footnote:

In one or two places an attempt has been made to hint at these distinctions by an inconsistent use of thou. Since this pronoun is now unusual and archaic it is employed mainly to represent the use of ceremonious language; but a change from you to thou, thee is sometimes meant to show, there being no other means of doing this, a significant change from the deferential, or between men and women normal, forms to the familiar.

That touches on Rumil's comment concerning the everyday speech amongst the members of the Fellowship. We don't read of switches back and forth from one to another, which would be more annoying than helpful in English literature*, but the change is noted only in very special cases.


*When romantic novels are translated from English to German, for example, the translator has to find a place to insert the switch from formal to familiar - when do the lovers stop saying "Sie" and start saying "Du"?!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original. I'll start it off with the German translation - the older one, as I don't have the newer, and have no idea what it did to these quotes in its often unsuccessful attempt to modernize the text. Perhaps someone else has it and can compare.

The German translation (by Carroux) uses the archaic "Ihr" and "Euch" as the formal personal pronoun, then switches to "Du" when Éowyn speaks to Aragorn. It gives her speech a very personal, almost intimate feeling and makes the indirect declaration of love stand out from the rest of their previous conversation. Since the familiar and formal pronouns are still in use today, it doesn't feel that strange or far away to a modern reader.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original.

In modern Russian, the respectful/deferential "you" is "you" in plural... So, like vous in French. However, as far as we know, in archaic Russian, everyone was addressed with the singular "you", regardless of rank. Unless, of course, the speaker is referring to a group of people.

So, in my Russian translation, there is no change in the Aragorn-Eowyn speach.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original. I'll start it off with the German translation - the older one, as I don't have the newer, and have no idea what it did to these quotes in its often unsuccessful attempt to modernize the text. Perhaps someone else has it and can compare.

The German translation (by Carroux) uses the archaic "Ihr" and "Euch" as the formal personal pronoun, then switches to "Du" when Éowyn speaks to Aragorn. It gives her speech a very personal, almost intimate feeling and makes the indirect declaration of love stand out from the rest of their previous conversation. Since the familiar and formal pronouns are still in use today, it doesn't feel that strange or far away to a modern reader.

Hi Esty!

I remember you mentioning how you considered starting a thread on this subject and I glad you did. Learning why Tolkien did this has given me a new and deeper understanding for these passages.

The passage you originally quoted, the exchange between Eowyn and Aragorn, did jump out to me when I first read it as an adult in English (in Swedish this particular significance it's probably lost in translation), mostly because I at the time had the notion that the "Thee" and the "Thou" etc were the formal personal pronouns, and that "You" was a familiar. But with this interpretation Eowyn's switch from one form to another didn't make much sense, which is why I took notice and was puzzled. Then I promptly forgot about it.

What you wrote in the op explains well why I had got this (obviously faulty) notion.

Originally Posted by Esty

To us nowadays, “thee” sounds antiquated and therefore formal, so it no longer carries the meaning it once had, of a close relationship between speaker and listener.

Also, in Swedish, a familiar term is "Du", which is translated to "You", and when I hear "You" in English I automatically think of the familiar "Du", not the formal "Ni", although the latter is also translated into "You". In addition, the formal personal pronouns have fallen out of use in Sweden. So when I see one antiquated term such as "Thee" I guess I associate it with another one, that is "Ni".

Denethor and the Mouth would use the familiar terms (sorry if this has been mentioned already) as a conscious insult when they speak to Gandalf. The proper way to address a person of high rank that you do not know intimately would be with formal personal pronouns, and by using the familiars instead, as you perhaps would to a servant, the Mouth and Denethor show how little they think of the Wizard.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original. I'll start it off with the German translation - the older one, as I don't have the newer, and have no idea what it did to these quotes in its often unsuccessful attempt to modernize the text. Perhaps someone else has it and can compare.

The German translation (by Carroux) uses the archaic "Ihr" and "Euch" as the formal personal pronoun, then switches to "Du" when Éowyn speaks to Aragorn. It gives her speech a very personal, almost intimate feeling and makes the indirect declaration of love stand out from the rest of their previous conversation. Since the familiar and formal pronouns are still in use today, it doesn't feel that strange or far away to a modern reader.

Between this and your immediately prior post, Esty, I'm curious about the German (and other languages, for those Downers who can answer) translation in general: do the translators imitate the Appendix F note that Hobbits only use the familiar pronouns throughout the entirety of the whole? Or is there some considered nuance (for example, might Frodo use the formal pronouns when speaking to the Elves, while Sam might never think to use it... or, for another example, does the Master/Servant Frodo/Sam relationship demonstrate it)?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for your comments on the Swedish translation and your understanding of these passages, Skip! Apparently Sweden must be the Shire, since the formal pronoun has disappeared there too!

I quite agree with you that Denethor and the Mouth use the familiar form as an insult - I do look forward to discussing those passages! Coming soon to a thread near you...

Formy, I checked the German translation of Appendix F, Section II, and it is precisely the same as the original. No changes there. I'm not familiar with the whole of the translated book, but I did look to see if Sam used a deferential form when speaking to Frodo, and that is not the case. Apparently the translator paid attention to Tolkien's words, and all of the hobbits use the familiar form.

[Bêthberry]

Wow, I'm away from teh interwebs for a few days and a great discussion breaks out! Feels like the old days. Thanks, Esty, for a marvellous thread, and All you Downers for interesting replies. (I can't help but recall that refrain from Monty Python, "Bring out your Dead".

Originally Posted by Rumil

Very interesting Esty,

I'd not clocked the significance in Aragorn/Eowyn exchanges.

As I remember it thee and thine etc are archaic, and therefore bring to mind legendary romances (Tristan and Isolde etc) but also archaic in that they bring to mind great leaders of old.

The major contrast here is between the hobbits' modern usage of you and yours and the 'heroic types' use of thee and thine. However the romantic use is a very telling sub-set of usage.

Also that the Fellowship are 'you and yours'-ers generally, perhaps tying in with (Denethor's?) comment that Pippin uses a strange idiom. Were the Fellowship (Gimli, Legolas, Aragorn, Boromir) using the modern forms as a more every-day form of speech?

Also backing up Selmo in that Oop North number of these archaic forms are still part of regonal dialect.

In addition to Rumil's point about the archaic use in the old romances, the verse translation of the Kalevala which Tolkien knew so well also uses the older forms.

Originally Posted by WF Kirby, trans

Wherefore at thy heart's desire
Should I not thy flesh devour,
And drink up thy blood so evil?
I who guiltless flesh had eaten
Drank the blood of those who sinned not?

This is the sword's reply when Kullervo asks if it is willing to kill him.

Romance and myth were a strong pull for Tolkien.

[Pitchwife]

Sorry, Miggy, I got you wrong then - I thought you meant what I said about Sam. My bad.

Anyway, Sam isn't the only one with that peculiar usage. The Gaffer calls the miller du, Herr Sandigmann, with a good deal of irony, but both he and Farmer Cotton address Frodo as du, Herr Frodo and du, Herr Beutlin, respectively. Apparently, this is the proper way among hobbits in the Carroux translation. It makes Shire society feel more egalitarian and pre- or non-bourgeois than it may have been meant to be, and it also makes Frodo's Ihr to Maggot stand out all the more - he still seems to have been kind of in awe of the farmer.

[OT]

Originally Posted by Esty

*When romantic novels are translated from English to German, for example, the translator has to find a place to insert the switch from formal to familiar - when do the lovers stop saying "Sie" and start saying "Du"?!

Some never do - like Sartre and Beauvoir, who I think vouvoyed each other all their lives. But then they were French, and the French are weird in that respect anyway - they even talk to God like that.[/OT]

Thanks for the Kalevala quote, Bêthberry! I knew Kullervo was one of Tolkien's models for the Túrin story, but had forgotten how closely Túrin's dialogue with Gurthang is modelled on this passage.

Which reminds me, I was told that the formal pronoun is becoming rare in Finnish, and the Kalevala, on the other hand, only uses the informal forms in the original...*hopes for a Finn to chime in here about the Finnish LotR translation*

[Faramir Jones]

I was very interested in your comment, Pitchwife, about the usage by a particular French couple of the formal 'vous' between each other, rather than the intimate 'tu':

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Some never do - like Sartre and Beauvoir, who I think vouvoyed each other all their lives. But then they were French, and the French are weird in that respect anyway - they even talk to God like that.

There's a excellent example I've come up against, that I've used to explain to non-French speakers the difference in usage between 'tu' and 'vous'. Napoleon Bonaparte, general and future First Consul and Emperor of the French, married as his first wife, Josephine de Beauharnais. He was passionately in love with her, she far less with him. When he was fighting in Italy in 1796, he sent her frequent and passionate letters; hers were far less frequent and passionate. What particularly angered him was her insistence in refering to him with the formal 'vous'. In one letter, he said the following:


If I rise to work in the middle of the night, it is because this may hasten by a matter of days the arrival of my sweet love.

Yet in your letter of the 23rd, and 26th. Ventose, you call me vous. Vous yourself!

Ah! wretch, how could you have written this letter? How cold it is?

And then there are those four days between the 23rd, and the 26th.; what were you doing that you failed to write to your husband? ...

Ah, my love, that vous, those four days made me long for my former indifference. Woe to the person responsible!

May he as punishment and penalty, experience what my convictions and the evidence (which is in your friend's favor) would make me experience!

Hell has no torments great enough! Nor do the Furies have serpents enough! Vous! Vous!